May 18, 2021

Episode 33 - The Farewell Tour


In episode 33 of Nicky and Moose: The Podcast, your hosts have a lot to share! Check out their thoughts and lessons learned from the Ellen announcement, the Joe Budden Podcast moves, and what J. Cole has been rolling out.

Grab a friend and your favorite note-taking tools to add this episode to your business and branding arsenal.

What You’ll Discover:

-Bow out while you’re on top

-Understanding your influence and your brand

-Control your narrative

-How to do business with friends

-Be careful of what you’re doing to hold on to control

-Equity when growing a business

-How much to demand on your name

-Bringing in new exercises and ideas to help make you great

-Not waiting for inspiration to hit

-Feeling free to walk away

Transcript

Nicky Saunders:

What's poppin'? What's poppin'? What's poppin'? Welcome to Nicky and Moose! I'm Nicky! That's Moose! What's up Moose?

Mostafa Ghonim:

What up y'all?

Nicky Saunders:

And we're on episode 33.

Mostafa Ghonim:

33!

Nicky Saunders:

And it's gonna sound like a depressing episode, but we're going to be talking about, like the end of a major era, two two eras, two. Right? We're gonna be talking about Ellen, and yes, yes, people we are going to be talking about the Joe Budden situation. And, of course, we're gonna be talking about J. Cole. Both of us are huge fans. And there was this amazing documentary that we have to go over and plus the rollout, of course, but Moose, how are we feeling about the episode?

Mostafa Ghonim:

Yeah, I mean, I think this is an opportunity to learn every, every time something ends is an opportunity to learn a lot about what can be avoided, for things that we're looking to start and sustain and all that good stuff. So to your point, although it may seem like its depressing, there's really a lot of lessons tied up in it. So I'm excited to jump in. And of course, it's a Cole world. It's a Cole world. Let's go.

Nicky Saunders:

Let's get into this intro.

Jaymie Jordan:

Two kids from Queens, cut from a different cloth. Now joining forces helping you to elevate your personal brand. Yeah I'm talking about Nicky and Moose! Bringing you a never before seen perspective into the mindset, the mentality, the behaviors, the driving force, but more importantly, the stories behind the people and brands that you know and love the most.

Nicky Saunders:

And you already know what time it is. Its review of the week. And this one says "Well produced! I listen to the whole episode, then I have to watch it on YouTube as well. I don't miss an episode." Shout out to our audio listeners. Shout out to our YouTube viewers or however you are dealing with this content. We totally appreciate you. We appreciate everybody who leaves reviews, so continue to leave reviews, we will continue to read it. Because we do this for y'all. But let's get into this episode because I already feel that I have a lot to talk about. And normally we have like four or five episodes uh topics for me to say that, but we're being very intentional and deliberate with this episode. First and foremost, a shout out to Kobe and his family and everything. As this is recording, he got inducted in the Hall of Fame. So that you know, and from the pictures that we saw, you know the daughter had the the jacket and everything like that I was watching a little bit of the wife doing her speech and everything. I felt like I was gonna get too emotional. So I just like saw a little bit and then like, nah I can't do this. Like shout shout out to the Kobe family. But I can't watch that emotional stuff. It's but I know you're a big Kobe fan, so I

Mostafa Ghonim:

I don't know I didn't know what was happening. don't know. I saw the pic of his daughter wearing the jacket. I thought that maybe it was just the moment. I didn't know it was happening right now. I'm gonna have to go check it out. But no, I'm with you though.

Nicky Saunders:

Yeah so shout out to Kobe. Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett all the Hall of Fame people. That was a dope vibe. But let's let's get into Ellen. So on on this week's what's poppin' right? Um, Ellen announced that there will no longer be the Ellen Show. That its done. What is like 19 seasons, 19 years? Something like that, right? She is a calling it quits. Now, why we're making this into a topic is is this because she's just bowing out like she feels like it's time to move on? Or let me control the narrative of what craziness happened probably last year or two years ago. But just watch the clip. or listen.

Ellen Degeneres:

You may wonder why I've decided to end after 19 seasons. The truth is I always trust my instincts. My instinct told me it's time. As a comedian, I've always understood the importance of timing. And in all seriousness, I truly have felt like next season was the right time to end this amazing chapter. But I wanted to give them a year, I wanted to give them enough time to know I didn't want to do it the last year I was here, I wanted to give them a year to celebrate with me and stay with me, I read in the press, that there's a toxic work environment, which, I mean, I had no idea I never saw anything that would even point to that.

Nicky Saunders:

So, um, you pretty much heard a little bit of a mash up of her announcing it, her talking to Oprah. And then a bit ago of her talking about some allegations of a toxic work environment that made media headlines all over, because its Ellen. When you're on top of the world, like she was, or is, right, with the number one talk show, right? Anybody who finds some type of dirt, and that is repetitive, and other people continuously say it is going to it's going to catch fire. It's going to be something we know you for. And my opinion to this is bow while you're on top, you know? Control that. What a few people I won't say a lot, but a few people tend to do is wait till it all simmers down, like you are number one, and then we just stopped talking about you. And then you say retired and we're like, yo, we we don't care. We don't even want to know more. Right? Right. So I think she is fully aware of her own platform, and fully aware of the power and control that she has. And her influence that she was like, You know what, and this is all my all my opinion, I'm not saying this part is facts. But she was like, look with everything that happened. And me seeing that stats are going down a little bit, I can probably bring them up. But maybe my energy isn't to it as it used to. I could do other things. Let me bow out. And while I'm on top, and control the narrative, picture it or post it as if I'm doing it next season. So I could give my guys time to find another job, figure things out, relocate all that great stuff. So it looks like she's part of the people. Right? So when it's all said and done she may have this like dent in her brand. But it will be overlooked, possibly, by all the good that she's done with the guests, and how she bows out gracefully. That's how I feel that could possibly happen. And I think that always goes with truly understanding your influence towards people and truly understanding the control that you have towards your platform. Because I think if she was just a regular talk show, right? If she was just somebody on the network, they would have just cancelled her. They would have just been like, Nah, you out like this is this is too much drama, whatever it is right now, going back to like a Will and Jada where you had certain things go crazy. Let me bring it on my platform. Let me control the narrative, right. I'm not saying this what Ellen does, but I think we're seeing a pattern of people with influence controlling their story. People of influence controlling when you see me and when you don't. And kind of not necessarily looking up to the allegations, but looking up to having that control of your brand. Like I said, I don't think I don't think many people given that type of network that airtime and everything like that. Like I don't think that many people after allegations like that would still stay on the air.

Mostafa Ghonim:

True. True. True. Yeah. And it definitely gives you something to think about. You know, to your point that if they were true, she probably would have been kicked off, or she would, she would have gotten kicked off. But it's just interesting to me that knowing her and how she is, she didn't really give much energy to it. You know, like, I think she's been a person of what appears to be great character, a pioneer as the first person to really go on air and say, Hey, um, you know, this is this is what I believe in. And I've always been this way, and I'm just going to be public about it, right. So like, She's been a pioneer for many people to kind of go after what they want, or just embrace who they are. So what's interesting with this, that she just denies it, to me, and I don't want to be gossipy about it. But to me, it's like, man, but I don't know that. If you're that type of person that somebody from your staff would come out and just say you've been this way, for such a long time. Like, they're not just like, well, like what happened with that situation? So we can know, are you this way? Are you not that way, because I think you've always mentioned it for any person who has a great deal of influence. And they establish a personal connection with their audience, the audience then feels somewhat indebted to or that person is indebted to them as an audience member to know what happened as like, hey, I've invested my time and you have contributed to your success, I may have paid to any sort of maybe show that you had or something. So and I did it under the understanding or assumption that you are this type of person, you follow this type of character. So if you if you sway away from that, and something else comes out, I need you to at least address it like, you know, it's it's, it's interesting, because while Yes, they don't owe a thing to the audience. I think it is common, or it is the right thing to do. So the fact that she just kind of swept it under the rug, and said, oh, wow, I don't know, I don't know what happened is like, Man, I wish you would have spoken to that and said, like, you know what, I did mess up or no, truthfully, there may have been some situation like just a little bit more clarity on that, I think would have been appreciated. But yeah, I mean, a farewell tour for her. It's the smart move, its the strategic move. So it's interesting.

Nicky Saunders:

Yeah. Shout out to Ellen for the platform that you've created, um, for the countless moments that you have within your show, and things like that, but clearly, end of an era, because I don't know who's going to take up that spot like that.

Mostafa Ghonim:

Oh, for sure. and for that long.

Nicky Saunders:

She's done alot. Yeah, for that long, like, she's, she's done a lot. You got to give her props. Regardless if those things are true or not. You got to give Ellen her props

Mostafa Ghonim:

100%. 100%. and what she's done. Not only for, like, the talk show kind of lane, but just being a human being a female. Me gay female, like just who she is. She's done a lot. So gotta give her flowers. Whatever you may think e're not condoning if it is t ue, we're not gossipy. I don't k ow what it is. But I do see t

Nicky Saunders:

I do see what you're doing, and I respect it, e power move. because that could have gotten you could have gotten beyond canceled and you actually bowed out yourself. I wouldn't say cancel yourself but bow yourself because there's other people cancel themselves. So shout out to Ellen. But talking about feeling attached and as if we need to know what happened, right. Um, we have to talk about this Joe Budden situation in which is officially over. Yes, officially, what we know of the Joe Budden Podcast with Mal and Rory is over. Now, you remember a couple episodes ago we spoke about you know, Mal and Rory leaving what is going to happen? What is the situation all that great stuff and we gave our own perspective. Now, there was an episode, first before the episode that I want to talk about because I want to give a bit backstory. They finally came back, right?

Mostafa Ghonim:

They did come back for an episode.

Nicky Saunders:

They did come back for an episode. Yes. Um, I was in Mexico watching it right? Um, little slight plug. I was watching it. And you could clearly see that the chemistry wasn't the same. But that was an episode where Rory and Mal said their piece right. Now after that there was an episode I want to believe and somebody to fact check me like 279 were a dropped on Apple and Spotify and all the podcast platforms for about five minutes and then was taken off to be on a paywall. Right. And it was pretty much Joe Budden airing out everything about the guys and what is happening and saying on the podcast that Rory is fired, and Mal will probably never come back and talking about things that they try to audit him. And they asked for ownership and things like that right. Now, clearly, I, how do I put this? I'm not a fan of how that was approached, right? I don't think everything needs to be put out. However, that's Joe Budden's podcast. That's his platform. However, he wants to express how he feels is there right. Now, clearly, the two people were not there to defend themselves or anything like that. So as we're recording this today, Rory and Mal did a whole separate video behind a paywall. I was on Vimeo it was like $2, right. And we have, like two clips speaking on it. Um, first one was wanting to address the whole. And this is, this is the only problem I have, right? And this is why I really want to bring it up. And I'm trying to be very strategic of how I say things because I could get very transparent, and Moose has to be like, hey, so Mic check, mic check, mic check. Yeah, yeah. So if you hear that, I apologize. All right. Um, however, they, as we know, of the Joe Budden podcast, we know

Jamil "Mal" Clay:

We have a profit agreement, a percentage of Joe, Rory, and Mal, right? Um, this has been going on for like seven years. All right. Now, there were maybe one or two other people that could have started it. But Rory came in like episode five, six. Mal came in around Episode 77. And before that, they weren't making any kind of money through this. Okay. So what Joe said in and you could check it and everything like that, I just didn't want to grab it the audio only was that they are on salary. That Rory and Mal, we're not owners or partners in any way, shape, or form. They were on salary. And so they weren't privy to know anything about the deals, merchandise, touring, anything like that. So in response, we have Mal dropped the clip, kind of what he thought about that. Ehen it wants to come up, but until then. Why does this do this all the time? It happens all the t me. But as we wait for this cli to come up, as I get it I ha e a big problem. Bec based contract with each other. And every time we asked for accounting, there was a problem. You never wanted to give nobody accounting, you don't want to show us the the real numbers from the deals and all this other and it's like alright fam, What are we doing? Because again, we have this contract and if you're not going to honor this contract, like you said in front of other people, then it's like this ain't gonna work. It's not gonna work and if you don't like I said of respect ain't there, I'm not there.

Mostafa Ghonim:

Yeah, I like that. If respect not there. I'm not there. Yeah, that's that's big. That's big. I listen, I listen to the whole thing today myself. I contribute to the to the creators I paid I paid the two bucks, you know, to, to to listen in. But yeah, I think it's an interesting dynamic right and I will speak to the parts that I felt were super super important across the board right. I think what they're asking for is very reasonable. Right now there is a difference in story so you don't know what is what. But from from what it appears on this Rory and Mal episode or video They have a timeline for about seven years that they have addressed, that they addressed in the video about all of the things that have happened and how things have come together. So the the one part that I want to kind of like break down a little bit is the fact that they say, accounting is under our expense. And I feel like that's something that's probably going to go over a lot of people's heads, but it's so critical. What they mean by that is that the accounting is something that was taken out of their profit, or is an expense on their balance sheet before they got paid. So if I'm paying for this service, as a part of our agreement in our partnership, I have the right to utilize it, right, and see what's happening. That's one, the second part of it, and again, according to what they're saying, if that's the agreement, a percentage of profits, then absolutely, for me to confirm that this is the correct number, the correct number on profit, I need to review the expenses, or I need to review again, the accounting. So that's a big component there that I think is so critical. It's one thing, and it's typical, in some agreements, by the way that the two parties coming together will say, you are welcome to have your own accounting, meaning that I have my accounting, you have your accounting, and and share numbers regularly because again, it's what you're getting paid on. So that's the first part that I listened to. And I'm like, okay, logically, this makes sense. And I can see why this is a concern for them. And, and I can see why also, it looks a bit skeptical. From the other end, it's like, Okay, hold on, why are you being so stingy around something that's just common practice. So that that's the first part that really stuck out to me. And I say, Okay, this is a big part here that people need to pay attention to, that they were responsible for the accounting, meaning that it got paid out of their expenses, or profits, or the things that stuck out but, and then, and then listening to kind of just the exchange, they it seemed like the respect factor was a big thing, that there were multiple, multiple, kind of, like, outrages toward them to not speak on anything related to the podcast outside of all three of them being present, right. But at the same time, there are some, like, for example, the incident when they say that Joe's manager was the one who called, and it's a desire to grow something. So I don't want to get into those specifics. But there are plenty of times, for example, where you and I may have dialogue about how to grow a portion of the business that we're in. Now, not every owner is involved in those dialogues. But I can only just imagine how much more difficult that would be if every single conversation we had to were having about the context of growing the business had to wait until everyone was present, a lot of things wouldn't move. So it's this it's, it's a it's a, like a broken thinking or an idea that you got to control everything and everyone, when people's intentions are to help you grow. Alright, you know, like, they want to come back and help you grow. So if you're not even going to allow me that, I can understand why the respect factor is so big and to say, Okay, I'm out. Like, I don't care about the money. I don't care about any of these things. And listening to them. They're all very, pretty much like they're pretty self aware. Like, they're honest about that, Oh, I know, I didn't come in here with a big personality or a huge audience. I know what I contributed to, you know, what I contributed with, but I also know what's mine. So those are the things that comes to mind Nicks from you know, from that concept, and I can see why the conversation is being had. And but I do like the move overall for them to put it behind a paywall, like in response to what happened.

Nicky Saunders:

Yes. So that let me start there were from a, you know, a branding and business side of how they handle content. Just the move alone, what both parties did was genius. They knew that the blogs, the podcast media people were going to be all on this right from either side from Joe side or Mal and Rory side. So the fact that and it's funny because Joe was trying to say, yeah, didn't sound so, you know, it didn't sound like for the public. So let me let me put it behind the paywall and was like shocked that people bootlegged it, sir, stop You knew you knew exactly what you were doing and you might as well get some coins for them fishing for the information, not knocking it. Okay. I think it's genius that you take content that you know, people are going to be super tuned in for. And you put it the time behind Patreon so they can see it, hear it all that great stuff. Cool. And especially for Rory and Maul, well, if you're going to get extra coins for you, dissing us or speaking on our own behalf, and things like that, we might as well do the same thing. Right. So from monetizing content wise, I think both parties are very genius, right now, from this particular clip, where, you know, in response of Joe saying that they were salary, and he's saying, nah, we're, you know, profit partner, like profit share partners, right? What's the proper thing? Is that it, you know, these these business words, I don't know, they get a percentage off of all the profits, right. Um, and how they explained it was look, before was just having conversations, all that great stuff. Then we started seeing deals come in. And it only made sense for some general contract saying Yo, out of, we get a percentage of all the deals that come through, right, not the overall of Joe Budden, the network Joe Budden, TV, Joe Budden, the podcast not overall, but as we are here, based off the deals that come in, get a percentage. Now, I don't know if this is true or false. I'm not necessarily taking sides or anything like that. What I'm saying is that, that makes sense, right? Even to, um, like with me and Moose, right? It only makes sense. As long as we do this together, if anything comes in, we both get a piece of it, I'm not going to be like put Moose on salary, no its Nicky and Moose. It doesn't it doesn't make sense right. Now. My my confusion, not confusion, but like I can see maybe where there was a protection thing and where Joe may have a valid point of yo this is the Joe Budden podcast, right. So though you are here, and though you may have helped, right, this is the Joe Budden podcast. So I do owe you something I don't owe you all those things. He may feel that way. Right. My my whole thing is, this is a scary moment. For people who do business with friends. This is a scary moment. And I think I'm so attached to this situation, because we've covered it here as far as their whole, like, their whole rise recently with the Spotify deal and they exclusivity and then coming out of Spotify and the ownership and making deals with Cash App and then Patreon and everything we creating the network it seemed as if from outside looking in as if everything was on the up and up for just three friend three four friends because we have to think about Parks right. Three four friends that had a conversation and created a whole empire. Right. So to see it go this public and this ugly as it has been right. It could only concern people who are in business with friends like yo How do you if on friendship level, our word is everything. Right? The second money comes involved does that go away? Do I instantly have to give a contract? I don't I don't understand this like this doesn't make any kind of sense. Right? And its crazy because I feel for Mal and Rory because they were like, Yo, I put my friend, you know, I thought this was on some friends stuff. Right. And we saw a bunch of red flags. And, you know, kind of brushed it aside, you know? Because we always assume that our friend would take care of us. And I know, I'm not going to get transparent. I'm telling you this. I'm not not going to. But I know we've had conversations where we assume people are going to take care of us based off what we've done. Right? Is it safe? I don't know, safe to say, but is okay, I'll say is it safe to say that when there's business involved, regardless of how strong the friendship is, there has to be some type of paperwork? That just covers things. Like, because I know, I hate paperwork. I'm not a fan of it. I think it's almost like an insult. As if it's like, yo, you don't when it comes to friends. Now other people could get this work, right? Like, please take take sign this, here you go, boom, no problem makes sure I get my percentage, we're all good. But then, if it's friends, I'm like, I don't even like giving NDAs. I'm like nah, trust. And it's bit me a few times. I know this for sure that I didn't have certain paperwork in play. It's bit me and I'm okay. The cool thing is, I'm okay with that. Right? Because I think, deep down and I don't know if it's my New York ways, or whatever it is, like, I know, I stay true to what was supposed to be delivered. Right? I did my part. And what I said was true. So when thinking about this, like, back to the, to the question that I had, is it almost as if there has to be like, we can't talk unless there's paperwork involved.

Mostafa Ghonim:

And I don't want to use the word paperwork. Because I think like, like, many people like you, or like yourself, don't necessarily like paperwork, it just feels like whoa, that's not how friends get down yet. So maybe it's not paperwork, but it's just a matter of keeping record of what's what, like, what are we agreeing to. And, and as much as possible, let's make sure that we're agreeing and on the same page before the money comes, or before anything comes, because that typically changes the dynamic of a relationship. So if you you know, when listening to their video today, they talk about a part in their conversation, when they would say, oh, imagine if we did this, and we were able to grow the show to make this amount to generate this number. Yeah. And I believe Rory was saying that Joe's response to that was, well, I wouldn't give you guys that percentage on that number

Nicky Saunders:

Right.

Mostafa Ghonim:

So it's like, oh, okay, well, that that changes things, right? Yeah. Now, especially if there's a contract already in place. So So more importantly for those of you out there who are uncomfortable around the composition of paperwork, especially in a partnership with your friends, because if you're like wait friends and family should rock like that we'll always have each other's back. Just keep record even have the conversation. I don't care if it's a voice memo, something right have record of it, so that it can be at least honored. And that's the part that I think is most important here Nicks because there are times and you may have heard it where people say well I don't even care about the contract. I'm going to dishonor the contract and that's just unfortunate right? Like you hope and pray that you won't be in business with people like that. But yeah, there's there's that part of it which is super important to have record of things because it does change when people start adding up and doing the numbers and they feel that they've contributed more than the other person it Yeah, they try and go back on their words I know it doesn't make sense to do that. Like as I do the numbers now it just it doesn't pay out.

Nicky Saunders:

I'm still struggling You know, I'm still struggling just because it's like how do I put this we I'm trying not to get too transparent. We got... praise God we have an after show shout out to to when that comes out. You're You're really going to get some interesting thoughts for me about this one. But I, I struggle with this, even when you say that because it's like, how do we know until money's involved how a person will honor word or contract? Like how will we? Because I had to handle that, like I had to see. And no, I'm not talking about a Nicky and Moose situation. So before anybody...I feel like some, I feel like Well, we're gonna get big and people are going to clip this and be like, oh, Nicky was talking. No. All right. But um, I know, I was in a situation where growing something from the ground up. And then when big money when the first huge amount of money that came through, you clearly saw what another person did that didn't favor equality, didn't favor even fairness in certain payouts. And I didn't know now, just like how Rory and Mal said there were certain red flags. Right. But because you're friends, you're like, it'll make sense. You know, nothing really serious can happen. You know what? Take this here. Pay this toll here. What? Okay, fine. Cool. Right. But then when it came to a whole guap, it was like, oh, oh, okay. I see. How are we... And I ate that. You know, I never I never asked her. I never made it such a super huge deal or anything like that. But well, semi I did. But you know, whatever. Okay. Yeah, I kind of did. But I wouldn't have known that until money circles in, you know, like, so how do you? Is there a way to avoid that? Because I don't think they would have known that. I in even I wrote it down as yo a podcast. And maybe I need to put more respect on podcasting, right, because clearly, Joe Budden created a whole empire off of it. But I'm like Yo, podcasting podcasting is talking to your friends on a, on a public level, right? Like, it shouldn't be this deep. It shouldn't be to where the greediness of money comes in. Because at the end of the day, you're having conversations with your friend. Right? And I'm like, I'm, I'm legitimately having conversations with my best friend. If a deal comes in, I made it very clear from the very jump, yo, we're part of this together. Right? Regardless if it was called The Moose Show, the Nicky podcast, whatever we're in, in this together what I did respect, right was that, in that particular response, they were like, Yo, I'm not trying to get half or any of like, the whole IP. That's, that's his name, like Joe Budden. That's his name. Give me the percentage You said you were going to give me? That's all I'm not asking for more. But when I'm seeing certain shows sell out, and I'm still getting the same payout as if it was 100 to 1000 people in there, but there's three 4000 people were here, I'm still getting the same payout. Something does not add up. But that's my man's and them. It will work out. So for me, I'm like, you, I don't think you truly understand until money is in play.

Mostafa Ghonim:

Yeah, you might, you might see signs of it. You might see signs of it, because it is it is available in little things. But I think what most people do is they downplay on it. They don't mean that. They just joking. I know we...this is different. But you see it in little things, and they make their way into bigger things when the money grows when the money multiplies. But the leadership lesson here is this concept of control. You know, like I think when you start finding yourself going into the heights or the depths of manipulation, to really control certain things or make sure that things don't go outside of your power. You got to be mindful of that because I understand how that may make you feel like man, I can never be defeated or I can never be removed from my position. But to your point, if you think about it, it's not like they could overthrow him. If his name is on the network or his name was on the show, like, it's not going to Oh, yeah, we just fired Joe. He's no longer sorry, oh, he's not still gonna be the Joe Budden podcast. Without Joe, though. It's like, that's not even a thing. It couldn't happen. It couldn't happen. But I think its a leader, it's a lesson for leaders to like, really be mindful of that, when you find yourself going to the depths of manipulation to have complete control over something. That's one of the things that actually stops its growth, it can no longer grow beyond what you're building it out to be, because now you can't be in certain places that your your craft or your art needs to be. Right, you got to kind of let it go beyond you a little bit. So yeah, it's I do think it's the right thing to do to end it though, after listening to both sides. And I know of course, they're kind of like having at it just because it's content. And its like we got eyes on us right now let's just go ahead and let loose. But I do think the right thing to do was to end it. It just doesn't make sense for it to carry on.

Nicky Saunders:

Before you say that final one. Let's get into the next clip. Because it's still I still got more I still got more.

Mostafa Ghonim:

Okay, so yeah, let's do that more.

Nicky Saunders:

Why is this? There...Wait, what just happened? Hold on. Why? I promise you.

Mostafa Ghonim:

For the listeners, give us a second.

Nicky Saunders:

For the listeners, we just, give us give us a few because not even a few. This is interesting,

Jamil "Mal" Clay:

Trying to create the narrative that I could sit here and do this with anybody. It's just trying to devalue it. You wanted to move me and Rory out. He was gonna try to wait till our contract was over because you know, you know, I wasn't going for no salary contract. Rory's already told you he wasn't. But now you could bring in two other people that's gonna have to roll with the salary contract because they didn't build the show.

Nicky Saunders:

Okay, so I want I wanted to bring this one up, because I wanted, and shout out to CJ. Um, we had a interesting conversation to where when do you give a person ownership and or percentage or equity some way shape or form? Right? If you listen or watch the response, hopefully you do support those two and pay to $2 and not go to YouTube and see all the bootleg shout out to all the bootleggers. But you will kind of hear the timeline of how each one was involved. Right? Where Rory was pretty much, even though said to come in later, he was very much involved from even episode one. Right? And for Mal to kind of jump in prior to the monetization of the podcast. Right? So like, probably 77, like I said, right? Um, so building it to where you get different deals to you get a Spotify deal to where you are having conversations with Tidal, and all that great stuff. Does that equal up to equity? Because, like, I was telling Moose prior to this, we don't know truly what is the truth until the audience which they don't, which we don't deserve to truly see. But it until we see the contract, right? We don't know if these two are on salary, if their percentage base or whatever it is. That's not really for me to say yea or nay. But I'm bringing it up to a

point of two things:

feeling replaceable and when is there a safe requirement or expectation for equity, or percentage or whatever, right? So from from your perspective Moose, if you were doing this all over, right, let's say okay, boom. This is the Moose podcast, right? And kind of similar, like you started out with somebody. It didn't work out whatever I came through on episode seven. Who else is cool with us? Karl came at like 52 or whatever, and things have been great, and we've made a lot of money for just having conversations, right? Um, what would be your take? And you're a good guy. So I don't know if this is really good question for you. But like, what would be your perspective from maybe a super business side? And then like a friend business side? You know, where does equity stand with you when growing certain businesses?

Mostafa Ghonim:

Yeah, so So from a, from a super business side, I think the easy thing to do, which is the fair thing to do, is to do percentage of growth, right? If the show was doing, let's say, 10,000, and it grew to 100,000, then there is a percentage of growth for those who sat in at a later time. Yeah, it's a little bit lower. But I think it's a fair thing, because it's like, oh, it's still honoring the contribution that you've made, as a part of coming on to the show, and more people now listening, and joining, wanting to grow with us, whatever the case may be, right? So a percentage of growth is a flatline model to use and say, alright cool, you know, I'm gonna do 50, you get 20. And then you get 10, as a result of the growth, now, there are ways to put tiers to that you can, you can, and we've seen people who've done, you know, 5% on X amount, and then if you make it to Y amount, I'll give you 10% or 8%. Right. So this like, is tiered, where it's really encouraging someone like the more you do, the more you get, which is fair, right? I think that's the way if you're gonna do it on a business side. For me personally, like you said, I don't know if I want to say I'm a good guy, but I just think it's, it's the right thing to do, especially if it's something in the form of what podcasting is for most people, which is a conversation with people that you love, and enjoy, and a message a story, relevant information or impactful information that you feel that can can help a lot of people that you're just putting out into the world, I think the fair thing to do is to say, No, scratch that, you know, the show became a thing when all three of us finally sat together, right. So like, we were still finding our footing and, and you can even hear it like when they talked about Joe and Rory first starting off, they were still looking to fill a third slot. And they were like still figuring out what is going to be what it is. So that you can't really call that a well established show. Maybe someone was established in their careers with their name and their brand. But I don't know if that you can call that a fully established show. But it seemed like they really found their footing in their ground once more sad in and then it was that okay, a complete, you know what, let's just go with the guys podcast. So at that point, you could call that the official day one, right? And then just just call it what it is, as of that day. So that's personally how I would see it. It's like, when did we actually become an official concept or a complete idea? And then work off of that. So that's how I view it in that realm. Especially because, what what has happened over that. So you might have said, you know, what? Nah, year one, and two, I didn't think you deserve that. But you then grow with me for three, four, or five, and years, six, and seven. So you, you continue to stay as like, loyalty has to count as a contribution. But the consistency has to also account for something because you weren't just a seasonal person who flipped out in and out. So I even compared it to slightly different concepts, because I don't know that we've seen this in podcasting. But I've compared it to the Two and a Half Men and show on one of the TV networks, where Charlie Sheen was the main character. And then after his fallout, because of his personal life, they replaced them with Ashton Kutcher. And then looked at the numbers of the show. And the show did nearly 90% better as a result of the new edition of the new character. So there is usually an improvement with an update of the of the of the people that you know, sit on the show. So it's like, nice, it's only right. So maybe after two years, like I said, we're testing it out. But if you're here to stay and you become a staple, then Yeah, why not just go ahead and make it easy for everybody. So that and that's the part that I favorite the most Nicky, that we can continue to do this and protect longevity. Yeah, I that's the part that I think is most important. You do something for a couple of days, couple of weeks, couple years. It's kind of like, whatever. There's no real big thing about it. But we honor and respect those who've been in the game for a minute. And that's the part that I would like I can see why they were making a big deal out of like, yo, let's just handle the tough conversation now. Let's get this stuff out of the way. So that we can continue to do this for a long time the money's coming in anyway. So let's just do it then. So those are two ways to look at it. I favor the second one more, because I just think it's a flatline easy model. And it doesn't complicate things.

Nicky Saunders:

Yeah. I can respect that. Um, I'm not going to talk more and to, to present this in contract wise, because I don't like I just love that topic. Like, I just, I feel like fair is fair. Um, and and that's it, like, fair is fair, if, if we did this, and I contributed a good amount. fair is fair. No, that's that's how I feel.

Mostafa Ghonim:

But in every conversation that I've had similar to this one, even amongst friends who I've seen go into business together, somebody always feels that their contribution is more than what it is like someone accounts, their contribution for bigger impact than what it actually is.

Nicky Saunders:

Facts. And I've been in certain conversations like that as well. But it always goes with it's not the, like, how E says not equal giving is equal sacrifice. So though, I may be super techie, and, you know, can contribute to maybe the look and everything in the tech side of a podcast, right? I can't do this with necessarily without you. Right? So I'm fully aware of that. I think both of us sacrifice and I'm not making this into Nicky and Moose thing. Yeah just an example. Yeah, just an example. I'm, I'm not, I can't do this necessarily. Because some people look at labor, or the connection or the, you know, the deals as if that is what makes the whole thing. Right. And with Joe, because its his name, and this is what I say. Kind of like it could go to is like, when you think of the Joe Budden Podcast, you go straight to Joe, because it's his name, right? So I don't know if that necessarily blows somebody's head up to where, okay, this is mine. And it's because of me, and all that great stuff. Maybe, right, like I said, we're not in in the back end of things. But I do feel as if you if you are two times a week doing a podcast with the same people over and over again and gone through Spotify deals, no, Spotify deals by yourself, all this gray stuff, independent. Like you just what's fair is fair, but belittling. And saying salary...regardless is true or not making them seem as if they are less than thou, like, in doesn't make sense. So even in that clip, when it was more like feeling replaced, this is one of the main reasons why I do not like a nine to five why I do not. Because though I agree that because it is under Joe's name, the podcaster needs to go on. Right, I do agree with that. Um, I don't like the people who built it, feeling as if I could just put another person in your place, and this train will continue to go. Same thing with nine, the fives and everything like that. And I'm only bringing nine to five because he put them in a salary base, supposedly, right? So no one wants to feel regardless of their skills or not. Like, I know, some people are going to you never want to be put in a position where you will be replaced, blah, blah, you know, there's some situations where, because you don't see the equal sacrifice, that that topic does come in play. Right? And you never want to feel as if you are being replaced, even though maybe in the back of your mind, you know, it will never be the same. Maybe the back of my I'm coming back or whatever. It's it's a horrible feeling to see some things play out like that with things that you've built to be like, yo, you just put this person there. Like you just...

Mostafa Ghonim:

Let me ask you this actually.

Nicky Saunders:

Yeah.

Mostafa Ghonim:

I'm curious for your thoughts on this. How much of a percentage Can someone keep or demand based off of their name? Because they have the like, for example, the Joe Budden podcast, the fact that is their name on the IP? Do you think that that alone is enough to automatically keep majority ownership? Is like, you know, at least 51%? Is it? Are there other factors that go into it? What How would you play that?

Nicky Saunders:

So, you mean, so what, what percentage is kind of expected for like, Joe, you mean that?

Mostafa Ghonim:

Yeah, yeah. Is it to say that automatically, because my name is on it, that I gotta have 51? Or better?

Nicky Saunders:

Yes, I will say that. Because all responsibility comes back to you. So, like, if we look at a shout out to E, if we look at a E, right, regardless of what happens, it always goes back to ease brand. No matter how good how bad one situation within happens within a company, right? With each individual, even let's say with a C or something, right? It'll still go back to E. So that percentage needs to be just as far as probably 50 or more, right? Now, if there are multiple parties, I can see maybe, you know, the percentages being a little bit lower or whatever. But I think 90% of the time, a person if it is under your name, right? And just your name, then it should you should have majority of it. Right? The bigger percentage, how about that? Maybe not even 50. But I will say, the bigger percentage out of everybody, because it's your name? First, right? For sure. Um, but, and I'm not even trying to advocate for them to have a huge percentage, right? I'm not saying that. But still to a point of they should have something if that was agreed, and there should not necessarily be a replacement. He should have done that by himself. There's some issues. go about it by yourself. If you think that people come for you, then be the show.

Mostafa Ghonim:

Test it. That's a good word. I like that. I like that. Yeah, test it, test it.

Nicky Saunders:

Be the show because it's, it's your name, right. And the, the crazy thing is, even in that response, they were like Yo, people said they were overworked. Let's think about it. We even broke it down. Where, okay, you did Spotify. And that was two a week you went from one podcast a week to two a week. Then after the Spotify deal, that's still stayed, and then Patreon came along. So now you're doing multiple episodes for Patreon to bring a paywall on top of the two week and everything, you have people who are editing, the audio, the video, setting up all that gray stuff, there's a lot of stuff, that's a lot of stuff. And if the money isn't right, regardless if it was money or not, that does come in play for somebody, you know, but at the end of the day, with, with everything that was built, a person should never feel like they could be replaced. So you should never put yourself in those positions to where you could be replaced. Now, I believe that if there was ever another situation that Rory and Mal would probably put in their contracts, you know, you can't find a replacement just like how supposedly Joe put in their contracts. You cannot create another podcast for a whole year. There should have been something to that effect. You cannot replace us for a whole year.

Mostafa Ghonim:

Hmm interesting. Interesting.

Nicky Saunders:

And and I think people who are in that kind of situation if it ever gets to where you start seeing red flags and things like that, where that needs to be talked about and be put in place on paper. Like yo

Mostafa Ghonim:

But you don't think that would bring up the whole friend thing like oh, what you mean like we're friends though. Why are we having the replacement convo because it's like, I feel like Joe could have easily flipped the the narrative on... We would you know, like Key word could have easily been brushed under the rug just off at a friend's convo, you don't think that would have happened there.

Nicky Saunders:

But there was a lot of like they said there was a lot of red flags when talk of a contract brought up, yo, get this out of here. So if a contract came up in the, the topic of you can't do this for a year, then it should be vice versa. You can't replace us for a year, because we're a staple personality in this particular podcast.

Mostafa Ghonim:

Yeah. Nah, we said this before, man, we've said this before, but contracts matter, contracts matter. And as uncomfortable as it is, just know that they're, they're important, they're necessary. And regardless of how much the opportunity you feel you're about to be given is, you still want to think about, okay, what like, man, what's the growth over time? How will my contributions grow and expand over time, whether that be based on the duties that things that I'm responsible for? How much I'm able to carry and contribute just as a part of my improvement and, and comfort and doing it? Right? Because I think a lot of people look at what they're getting right now. They take into consideration their current standing. And maybe they're trying to run out of a bad situation. So assigned right now, that's great. But then they don't take into account man, well, what if things change? What if you carry more responsibility? What if that strips you away from being able to do your thing or whatever the case may be? So they never negotiate for leverage or something like what you're saying, Oh, you want you want the IP, okay, bet I can't be replaced. Because it's true. Like, here's the biggest part of this right now. Right. And this is the thing that, like, the biggest thing on my mind, all that other stuff, I think is like apples and oranges. Whenever two people disagree, they couldn't see eye to eye, they have to break up. Sorry, it had to happen, but it's happened. What sucks, though, is that these two guys have nothing to fall back on. Right, like the Joe Budden podcast can continue, is going to continue to make money off of all the stuff that they've done for seven years. Right, as more people find out what happened, they might go back and kind of like binge watch as far back as they want to, who's going to get that money? Right. And I don't know if that's something in their contract. But that's the stuff that I would be working on or talking about right now. Before we call it an official breakup, or release, what happens on the stuff that I've contributed and put seven years of my life into in seven years of my time of not being able to build something else. And I'm going to walk away from that with nothing to show for it. I don't know if a big payout, like you just cut me a check for whatever the number is now to say, all right, you can't have none of that seven years. Or they might be like, I don't know, if they're gonna go to the depth of you're not going to have nothing get out. And seven years is gone. That's crazy. To me. That's the part that I'm like, man. I don't know what the case is with that. But that's got to be the biggest thing to care about right now.

Nicky Saunders:

It's super unfortunate, may have to finish this convo on after show. May have to finish it. But let's get into J. Cole. Real quick. Just because first off fire album. The rollout for that, ya'll know, I like talking about the launches and rollouts of certain things. From just the album cover kind of showing what the burning backboard and everything like that. And saying, you know, hey, releasing a new album on the I don't know, I forgot the 14 whatever it was right. Um, it was yesterday. What am I talking about? 14th. Right. Um, and then playing the the Interlude the the, the song that he released so people could get very hyped from it, then saying that he's going to be playing basketball at what's that? What's the thing called?

Mostafa Ghonim:

Different country. Yeah. I think its an international team somewhere,

Nicky Saunders:

Coming out with a documentary then showing the tracklist then coming out and saying Yo, my first game is on Sunday. Can we say an amazing very interesting roll out what that is amazing. Um, did he have to do that? I don't think so. J. Cole has been known for just dropping whenever he wants to drop and it still goes platinum. Right? he still does amazing numbers. The the interesting part is and for those who haven't seen the J. Cole documentary that he did about this album, I highly suggest it. But he grew hunger as if this was his very first time. Right. And in a lifestyle of hip hop and the lifestyle of music artists where you reach a certain type of peak, like, you don't necessarily have to work as hard. So we have a clip from the documentary. Audio, you're good, but YouTube, please, please, don't don't. Please don't flag us. Yeah, I mean, I just, I just want to you know, I just want to show this particular part. But that's just me. Um, hopefully, you will understand why we brought this up, because so many rappers, just kind of, chill. And so I definitely want to show this particular...

J Cole:

This is the moment that a lot of your favorite rappers hit a crossroad, where they did what...they set out to do. And then the fruits of the labor, started working against them. That same energy and that same, like passion they put into the craft was gone. And it was replaced by like, comfort and luxury.

Nicky Saunders:

So, the reason why I brought this one up, is because his whole part. And we talked a little bit about this on the YouTube live his whole part, first chapter of that that particular documentary was called, like, comfortable, right? And how you, here's my confusion, where you work so hard to have a certain kind of lifestyle to have certain kind of luxuries. And it's almost looked at as more of a, how would I say, a negative thing than a positive thing. Because when you get everything that you work that you wanted, and you worked for, then the hunger isn't necessarily there. So how Cole kind of placed this as if he was like, before I leave, right. And this is for the next clip kind of thing. Actually, let's play both, let's say both. So we could just talk all over it around about it

J Cole:

Every day, I woke up, wrote verses made beats. So in so all that to say the Off Season was like same concept like, right, one more time, before I leave, like before, I feel like I'm like, like fulfilled in this game. Let me try to reach new heights from a skill level standpoint.

Nicky Saunders:

So back to what I was saying was, he has nothing to prove the fact that he's still trying to get to new heights in a career that he has, like, doesn't make sense to me. Like you've proven everything you've proven to be one of the top rappers right now, maybe he's trying to get on the top 10 five on everybody's list. I can't, you know, can't knock that right. But the fact that he literally took it back to going to the old Queens spot to get that same kind of focus, doing seven minute drills of writing, you know, and not going back to you know what, let me go on the private jets and, and just bask in this comfortable lifestyle that I have that I literally can just say whatever. And he's done that on on albums to be like, you know what, I want to talk about this. I'm going to talk about this. I will say the last real album, besides this one was the Forest Hills one. That anything after that was in that wasn't my favorite. Right. But the Forest Hills one I went to the tour for that one. All that great stuff. It was great. Then those albums came out. I was like, uh, where's J. Cole? What happened? Right? And now this one came out and I'm like, yo, is this his last one because I don't want it to be.

Mostafa Ghonim:

That's what it sounds like. I was actually gonna I was gonna say that I was gonna ask you about that because yeah, he's saying before I you know, make my exit I wanted. I'm like, Oh, this sound like maybe he's thinking about just calling it quits after this.

Nicky Saunders:

This That's what I think his intention is. You don't you have everything. You don't have to prove nothing. You now and if you didn't see that LA Leakers freestyle, you're bugging, right? That freestyle alone was I was like, I don't even need to hear the album. That was fire, right? Um, it, it just shows that it's important to leave the same way, same way you came in. It's not about and we look at some of the greats, and we see how they just kind of chilled there, like, never want to go too too higher up, or they went higher up in a different industry or a different way. Right. But they never necessarily continuously competed with themselves in that top spot, right? Because I look at a Jay Z. And he made the Black Album, but then came out with two three more albums after that. Um, but even even when he came out, like, what was was his last was the last one 444? Was that his last one? Okay,

Mostafa Ghonim:

I think 444 was the last one. Yeah.

Nicky Saunders:

So 444 wasn't necessarily for me. And people can say what they want. Didn't take it skills wise to another level, I think mindset wise, and that kind of level. That's where Jay Z elevated. But I believe with Jay Cole with this one. He said, yo, that hunger that drive that that love for the music needs to come back with with this last one. This one that I'm doing right here, I can't just go downstairs and record comfortably. Because we've seen those albums where he just comes downstairs comfortably. Right? This is where he's being very intentional and deliberate with what he does. And showing us kind of the way of there is never a time to settle. Because we look at when you reach the top and how at that point you are so in wrapped with the environment and the comfortable vibes that you've created that people are starting to pass you and you're okay because you got whatever whatever you wanted.

Mostafa Ghonim:

Yeah.

Nicky Saunders:

And he's saying Yo I'm not okay with and when I think about it, with the whole not having any kind of features. The last album things like that, like am I okay, if this was to be done right now? He said no. And he's treating like I said he has a whole full album rollout. Like the only person that I know that does a full blown album rollout like that is DJ Khaled.

Mostafa Ghonim:

For real. For real.

Nicky Saunders:

Cuz that man...

Mostafa Ghonim:

Yeah, goes all out.

Nicky Saunders:

But But what do you think?

Mostafa Ghonim:

Yeah, I mean, I do enjoy the fact that he he is because like, you're right. The last, like really powerful Cole album was Forest Hills drive that came out in 2014. So it's like, Man, it's been seven years... still still available, right? Still putting out music, still developing other artists even and really helping, you know, his squad, which is which I still think is dope. So he's, he's a great person. We all love J Cole. We know he's been doing meaningful work all throughout. But I think for him to want to come back and close off this way, is really dope. And I think it's, it's, it's common for a lot of us to want to explore something new at some point, right? Like we we master something, we start to find it easier to do what doesn't exert as much energy from us. And typically, most people, its very rare it's a very rare trait or characteristic but a very special one, that somebody can get better and still want to work just as hard if not harder, at the thing that they are improving on right. Typically, people start saying, well work harder, not smarter, like you don't have to grind. Like right they want to enjoy the fruits of their labors, which is common. So I think it's really powerful and it actually shows his love for the artistry and the music before he even gets started. Cuz he's telling you, I want to come back with this. The other part of it, I think, and it probably came about because of just what's happened over the last year and a half is him saying, Man, I want to give out features like, I don't know if I want to look back and say, Yo, I never collaborated with anybody. So like, with the passing of all of these wonderful people, you know, in, in various industries, music, sports, just in so many different areas. I think this kind of made him realize like, man, if you don't want to, while that was a good thing to go Platinum with no features, I think right now you got to honor those who have come before and after you and actually do almost like this passing on the throne, or this turning of the page kind of thing. So that you can look back on memories and build relationships. It's a very, it's a it's a super introverted move, right. And again, shout out to the flight assessment, because this is coming directly from there. But it's a super introverted move where you find your groove doing something that you love, and you get comfortable doing it. And you're like, Yeah, well, I don't want to do anything different than this right here, because I'm comfortable doing this. And then you do it for so long. And then something happens that makes you realize, like, oh, shoot, maybe there's another way to do that. Or maybe Maybe I was wrong for doing too much of that. So I think that's what he's recognizing. Now. It's like, yo, let me honor and cherish like first song on the album feature with Cameron, and I'm like, oh, wow, like he took it back. Like, let me go all the way back to maybe when I was in Queens listening to music and Cameron was hot at then, let me collaborate with one of my favorite artists growing up. So it shows like the maturity and someone wanting to correct, you know, something that maybe he felt he did wrong. And and I respect it, you know, I really respect it Nicks, because like, many people don't get the chance to do that. And they kind of look back with a what if type of thing. And he's like, yo, let me correct it now. And just it is what it is. So with this rollout, and having so many things come up back to back, it seems like he's just like, I let me let me let go once and for all and really do it the way I want to.

Nicky Saunders:

Yeah, and I think the the way if this is his last album, right? Um, is going to make fans miss him, you know, its not going to make us think about past albums and be like, that's when J. Cole was hot. It was like he left hot. You know, this is a rapper that left at his peak. Peak performance best that he's ever done debatably to, you know, I've seen multiple reviews on on the J. Cole album and all have been good. All have been good and debatable as being a possible classic. Right? Which, you know, some people are like, Oh, it's too early to say but I mean, you got to give props where props is due, you know, it's a really good body of work. And to to sit here and be like, for for me, like, what if you have that, that lifestyle, and he said it in the documentary and we talked about it on the live, where, like, how do you still find the creativity? How do you still find that that word play and everything still? Like what do you do? And the fact that he came up with a routine to bring that out of him no matter what time place, whatever, it's something's that we have to look at and be like, how can I duplicate that in what I do? Like how do I and from, from me from a standpoint of a content creator, like how do I create a routine that will force me to always have content to force me to always show up to force me and not in the negative force. Because sometimes when we show up you could tell we've been forced, but what can I do to make it fun? Like he said, Yo, I do seven minute drills, to to perfect my craft. So I do these different drills that make it because he's a basketball player. Right? He brings what he loves to do from basketball and brings it into his craft of writing and raps. What can we look at from some of the things that we love, whether it's a hobby or passion or whatever it is, what are some of the things that we can bring that into our own craft that will continue for us to level up and have fun doing it? That was one of the biggest lessons that I got out of that, that documentary, not only on almost to a point of life avoid being comfortable. Right? Let me avoid being comfortable. But as well as, let me find, let me pull from different places of my life and different things that I do to make what people know me for fun again, where people know me for different exercises to expand my mind and my knowledge and my skills and getting me to new levels without necessarily feeling if I have to wait for that to come. Yeah, I thought that was like, out of this whole J Cole situation. That was one of the biggest lessons that I learned was that we don't necessarily have to wait for it to hit us once we reach a certain point. Because we may be coasting and be like, I could do this at any time, let it hit me. I'm gonna kill it on my execute it at any point. But sometimes we should be ready to go at any point. And that's what makes us great. The typical and the average will wait for inspiration. The typical and average will wait for that creativity to hit for then you to see the results. I should be able to show you results at any point and still kill it. And still be like, yo, you still doing it on this level? Absolutely. What's up? And its easy, because it's fun for me because I do this on a regular.

Mostafa Ghonim:

100%. 100%.

Nicky Saunders:

That's what I think. Yeah, we went a little bit long. I apologize. Not really, I don't apologize at all. This needed to be said, and there shall be more. But follow us on everywhere. Not on anything everywhere at Nicky and Moose. Everywhere. YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, all that great stuff. Follow us. And every Tuesday 8pm Eastern 7pm Central three hours prior to that West Coast time. We are on YouTube every Tuesday. Just tea hing y'all some things. It var es in the topics, but it's alw ys great. And so shout out to verybody who does that. But fin l words from Moose because t is was a long episode.

Mostafa Ghonim:

Yeah, yeah, no, I think I think across the board, you see what some of these farewell tours. I think while money is important, you're seeing that more important is your peace and the energy that you bring to the table. So it's like no amount of money can buy that or should be able to buy that from you. And at any moment you feel that you're being disrespected in the space, feel free to walk away.