Episode 54 - Resources VS Relationships

Nicky Saunders  0:00  
Whats poppin whats poppin what’s poppin welcome to Nicky and moose im Nicky that’s moose what's up moose? and we are an episode 54 this is gonna be a good one we're going to talk about of course Facebook going down and the conversation of ownership or partnership or independence or you can't bet on yourself it's it's a lot today really good conversation moose How are you feeling about this episode?

Mostafa Ghonim  0:43  
I mean we gone give you an opportunity to look at a few different options of what's happening out there in the industry. And the cool thing is all of the examples today are actually big time brands so like the exclusivity of saying you only have to be big through big company or through partnerships or through this you get to choose you know, I'm saying so that's what today is about.

Nicky Saunders  1:06  
Yeah, let's get into this intro

Jaymie Jordan  1:09  
two kids from Queens cut from a different cloth now joining forces helping you to elevate your personal brand Yeah, I'm talking about Nicky and Moose bringing you a never before seen perspective into the mindset the mentality the behaviors the driving force, more importantly the stories behind the people and brands that you know love the most.

Nicky Saunders  1:38  
And let's get into the review of the week. This one says these are slept on okay though, huh? Okay, all right. Nicky and moose have the perfect combination of peanut butter and jelly with their chemistry and approach when talking. Like talking all the things current events, while finding the branding in business lessons in them all. listening to them is an investment and making all you do better. As long as the message the point of our podcast is getting through they said current events branding and business we doing good

Mostafa Ghonim  2:25  
that's literally Yeah, I was gonna say that's literally what what is intended to me. So if y'all picked that up, man, thank you that that lets us know we're on the right track.

Nicky Saunders  2:34  
Yep, so make sure you leave us a review on Apple podcasts and I think pod chasers too but the main one is Apple podcasts we read them all you could be on the show we shout you out so shout out to everybody who leaves us a review and shout out to our audio listeners and viewers You know what I mean we appreciate you, and Moose how are you feeling

Mostafa Ghonim  3:02  
man pretty good I'm I don't know if you see my my my my light colors my my pinstripe fall cream colors 

Nicky Saunders  3:09  
I see it, looks springish 

Mostafa Ghonim  3:11  
yeah I like you you're transitioning into fall but you really don't want to say bye to spring summer kind of vibe but yeah, it's working I feel pretty good. This is my way of saying I feel good today

Nicky Saunders  3:22  
Its a Easter vibe for me. It's a it's Easter it is

Mostafa Ghonim  3:26  
you might maybe I got to pull it back out then I’ll  just ill shelf it and pull it back out

Nicky Saunders  3:31  
At least you know what you weren't for Easter Sunday I'm just saying

Mostafa Ghonim  3:35  
hey hey you know I'm saying you gotta be better safe than sorry You right.

Nicky Saunders  3:39  
Let me say I saw you little work workout kind of routine on the ground

Mostafa Ghonim  3:47  
don't say too much

Nicky Saunders  3:55  
he's working out people well I guess that's all I guess that's all I can say moose is working out

Mostafa Ghonim  3:59  
You know I had hurt my back you know I have hurt my back I told you about that but back was was blew up for like two weeks. It was Yeah, it was bad. It was really bad

Nicky Saunders  4:09  
then I can't say because I was like You look great. You squats and everything but never mind. Never happened 

Mostafa Ghonim  4:17  
Feel me. It's bouncing back okay, you know it's coming back. Yeah, how are you? How are you feeling?

Nicky Saunders  4:24  
Im great.

Mostafa Ghonim  4:25  
I’m starting to sweat here figured If ask you a question. Yikes. back for Easter. Bring it back up for Easter egg. 

Nicky Saunders  4:39  
For all our viewers you will know what we're talking about audio people just go on YouTube and and see what was the Easter shirt which was still really nice because I'm wearing black and you were bringing color to the podcast

Mostafa Ghonim  4:55  
Add a little life to the screen.

Nicky Saunders  4:57  
Hey, now we got to just concentrate on my Red and orange, but that's cool. That's cool. I'm with it , but um, let's talk about Alright, let's just go into this Facebook situation. All right, so, depending on when you hear this what date was that? Let me let me get my facts right. Oh, it was a Monday. So it was October 4, where everybody didn't know what to do with their life. Instagram, Facebook, Whatsapp messenger all went down for like eight hours. Um, I will say this I never realize how weird it was to like, check it as much as I did and it didn't work. I was like, Oh, I have a I have a problem. I have a problem and I was trying to I was trying to be like, oh well I have to you know because I gotta see what's happening and when it's up that's part of me like I gotta. But I realize like I'm always working and then

Mostafa Ghonim  6:16  
sneaking in there like At least your being honest with yourself I don't think that many people are gonna be honest with themselves and say shoot I might have have a Instagram addiction low key.

Nicky Saunders  6:29  
Yeah, I Low key do I low key do but yeah, it was it was like back to back to it was like oh is down. Two seconds later, I would pick it up like, oh, let me check my other account. Like my other accounts gonna make any difference.

Mostafa Ghonim  6:47  
As if that’s gone magically work

Nicky Saunders  6:49  
was it was bad, but I didn't even care about Facebook. That's the bad part about it. Like they were like Facebook's down to I was like, I don't care about that. What about Instagram. But needless to say, there's a lot of rumors about why it happened. There's it got hacked. The craziest thing? Oh, this is what I did want to say. This is where tech goes wrong. So I don't know if you saw the tweet where it was like, I think it was done by TechCrunch. Where it’s saying, since Facebook is down, Facebook employees can't get in, because their badges won't work. I was like, oh, wow, this is when tech goes to the can't go into the building they couldn't get in. Supposedly Wow. Yeah, that that was that was a tweet. I was like, oh, wow, that yo social media controls everything. Wow, that was weird. But so one of the speculations is that there was the 60 minutes that came out about this Facebook whistleblower, right I had no clue what it was. Clearly, it was a former Facebook employee. spilling the beans. Now, there was a part of it that I wanted to talk about in the context of when you want to stay relevant. What route do you go? So let me show the clip. And audio people you hear it? So you know what I'm talking about.

Facebook employee   8:26  
And one of the consequences of how Facebook is picking out that content today is it is optimizing for content that gets engagement or reaction. But its own research is showing that content that is hateful, that is divisive that is polarizing. It's easier to inspire people to anger than it is to other emotions. misinformation, angry content is enticing to people and keeps them on the platform. Yes, Facebook has realized that if they change the algorithm to be safer, people will spend less time on the site. They'll click on less ads. They'll make less money.

Mostafa Ghonim  9:05  
Mm hmm. Wow.

Nicky Saunders  9:10  
So moose How do you feel about that clip hearing that aye Facebook is doing it is showing you all the wrong stuff and things that could possibly get you mad, right. Weird part? I don't think I experienced that on Facebook. I don't know if you experienced that. But I don't like the the way they have this whole narrative of a false news and misinformation and all these bad things. I don't see that on Facebook. Granted, I'm not all the way every day on Facebook except for this week lately. But what do you think about it

Mostafa Ghonim  9:58  
man, I think it's So interesting, right? So there's, I'm almost in the middle of this, right? Because from one side of it, I understand people's concerns with their privacy and their information and all that stuff. And look, I'm not for complete invasion of privacy. But the fact that they make the experience easier, right, by being able to show you more relevant things, I think that's a positive, right? Especially like they say, Well, if we didn't use the platform, or make the platform the way it is, when you search for something specific, there's no way that you would get exactly what you're looking for, like, I don't know who I saw breaking this down. But they were saying, imagine you were looking for how to best season steak. And then you found videos coming up on the first page about the best toothbrushes and maybe tooth paste, that would be pretty frustrating for you as a user. Alright, so there, were saying that they almost come hand in hand, this concept of being able to utilize your information, it's because it makes their system better. Now, the area where I have to draw the line, because I think it becomes more of an issue because of culture and company values, is this idea of you knowing that this is how it contributes to maybe violence, hatred, things of that nature. And you are choosing not to put a limit on that, because you want more people to spend time on the platform. Because again, that's how it translates to more dollars in your favor, based on the advertising and marketing that you do with other companies or businesses or offerings that you bring to the marketplace. So that's for me, where I draw the line nicks, like, if we're saying, hey, and especially because Zuckerberg has made multiple appearances, you know, in government, or in whatever court saying, Hey, you know, this is what we stand on, we're very XYZ, and this is what we believe we want to make it all equal for people, but you're not putting the actions in place to actually live out that belief system. So that's for me, where it becomes a little problematic, because it's like, dang, like, you're saying that's what your company believes in. But that's not what you're doing behind the scenes from an operational sense to actually live out those values. So it's a big hypocritical move for me that I'm like, ah, I know, I understand how it makes things better for us as users, but when it comes to this part of it, especially if you have the opportunity to choose to limit that, and you let it go, then that lets me know that, you know, it's more your whatever is in your favor, above the well being of the world, or the people or the community or the users on Facebook, as you claim it to be about but that's not what it is. I see.

Nicky Saunders  12:58  
Yeah, it's, it's when I think about it, I don't think I'm too shocked by the situation. I Facebook isn't as relevant as it used to be. right because you didn't hear my space, then that died. And then it was just all Facebook, right? And then other stuff started to pop, Twitter, Instagram, that's why they bought Instagram. tik tok, like YouTube is just a lot of things that Facebook may not be number one or even two anymore. Right? So but the weird thing about this is the one thing that pops in my head when I think about like anger and violence, and not to bring up this man in any kind of way. But when Donald Trump said what he said, and then there was this whole riot, right? That was all over the news. I think that was on Twitter. I think he said that on Twitter or something. And it caused this whole crazy protest that, like, took down the Capitol and everything. I don't see that same energy on Facebook, but we've talked about it in past episodes where just because I don't see it doesn't mean it's not happening. Right, right. based off what this person said. It just seems a bit desperate. It just seems like we already know. And here where it's kind of lesson is is like, we know, emotion, makes people do stuff makes people engaged. Now sad doesn't make People want to engage too much. Happy is a good emotion that, you know, wants to spread positivity. But they choose not to go the positive route, which still has engagement, I think because they're not as on top as they used to, they can't necessarily do the positive route. Now, when people hear this, does that mean? Okay, well, if it's not working anymore, do I go the negative route? Do I go, making people angry, and getting them to engage in that kind of way. And we've seen it, where people will post, like, controversial posts just for engagement, even minor stuff, right? And we know that works. But you have to look at the values of your own brand and business, and does it align with that. And just because things may not be working, or you may not be getting the same money as you used to, is it worth really taking that route of always being known for the person who stirs up the pot, always being known for the brand That says something That could be true, but we're not really sure. But it's entertaining. Like, regardless if it's true or not, that's entertaining, we're going to talk about it. So I look at it more like a lesson on what emotion Are you trying to evoke for your audience, period. And like staying true to that, regardless of the waves of business, and entrepreneurship, because you could get very desperate, in those low peaks, you could get very desperate, when the money isn't looking like how it used to. So like, I get why Facebook is doing it. I just, you know, I just can't agree with it, but supposedly, its working, you know, like, I can't, I can't say no, don't do it. Like she in the 60 minute, because I watched the whole thing was like I she worked at Google, she worked at Pinterest. And she was like, I came to Facebook. So I could work with the department to get rid of all the false information.

And realizing it was never going to happen. And I'm like, there's always the villain. in a, in a crowd. There's always the person who does the opposite of what's supposed to happen. But it's so they'll just put a sticker on it like off, you know, false information. Or they'll do maybe some things that they'll take some information down, but keep others up. You know, and it's like, as, as users as well, though, we are very, we get influenced very easily, and how we, how do I say this? How we get our thoughts sometimes is based off what we always see. Right? Whether it's on the news, whether it's on Facebook, whether it's in a website, whatever it is, if we continuously see something, some of us may be like, oh, true. This is how life is this is what this is right. But I think also as consumers, we have to be a little bit smarter. Like, we have to look at it on, like, what is this source? And should we believe it based off what we continuously see on this platform? And do we see the same information on other platforms? 

Mostafa Ghonim  19:29  
Yeah I will say, and I want to ask you a question here in just a moment, but I do think that part of it is our fault. Right? Like, I don't think that everything that happens in this world is a result of the Big Bad Wolf, the big company, the big corporations, the bad CEOs, like you played into the narrative. Yeah. Right. Like Yes. And again, you could say, well, they have these psychological tactics to know that we're going to enjoy negativity and drama. More than positive light. Yeah, but but you help them fund it like you help them figure that out about you. You played into it, you kept pushing that agenda. And guess what? It gave them the green light to do it, and no one, you know, no one called them out on it. But at the same time, and this is kind of where I want to ask you like, I understand business, right? Like, there's a product business where it's very black and white, you remove emotion from it, I'd like to believe that, hey, at one point, you get so big, that you really got to start taking into consideration the well being of humanity, especially when you have over 2 billion people on your platform, or whatever it is. Maybe Maybe I'm off with that number, but it's it's close, they got a lot. And I'm and I'm looking at Facebook, as Facebook and Instagram, because they own Instagram. Right? So I'm looking at both of them together. So I guess my question for you is, let's say your CEO, your CEO of Facebook, and Instagram right now, how do you navigate that concept as a, as an owner of from a business standpoint? Do I keep just solely focused on growth of the platform? Making sure user time is through the roof? Or at some point? Do you start saying hold up a second? Like, we're actually out of pocket? Because of this, this? And that? what's the what's the balance? In your perspective? How would you run it?

Nicky Saunders  21:24  
For me, it's, it's, it's values always over money all the time, right? Which in this case, may not be so beneficial, and a revenue generating at times, right? Because we already know, like, Facebook is just any platform, we know entertainment, sells, we know entertainment is the most that people truly watch and engage with. Now with that, there's a good side of entertainment and a bad side of entertainment. If there was a stat, that clearly people are dying, Umm harming themselves and and those nature's based off the information that they see on the platform. That's a different scenario. And I mean, a good significant number, not a certain percentage, because a certain percentage could play off of anything. Like I think sometimes we find reasons to blame somebody else besides ourselves, or besides the true reason why things happen. Right? Like, random side note, when somebody did you see the one about Geico? Did you see that? So, side note, but it'll go right back around. So a female sued Geico, because they caught an STD in a car that was insured by Geico. Oh, wow. Right. So instead of suing the individual that got you the STD, you are now suing the insurance company of that the car is covered by weird so I say all that, because not saying that some content that is out there could truly affect people, but I believe in certain case, we cannot say yay or nay. If Facebook is the true reason why this is happening or that’s have they're just not helping. They're not helping the cause. Right. Same reason with with the whole COVID situation. We know, we can't say this event gave us COVID. Right? But it may have played a factor if I didn't have to go there. I possibly wouldn't have gotten it possibly. I don't know yet. Right? No, I don't have COVID. I'm not saying I have COVID. Okay. But I'm just I'm saying that to say that if there is a true significant number that shows that it is negative, like what we're doing is negative I would have to change the direction somehow, some way. If it doesn't, and there's just people there's billions of people in the world like you really got to look at it like okay, who is is it truly misinformation now, I'm assuming its true, because I've heard that Countless of places about Facebook, countless. Yeah, right? Yeah, well,

Mostafa Ghonim  25:04  
 I will say I mean, I just think that if whenever we choose to just be honest and transparent, believe it or not, the growth effect is just as impactful, right? Even if you can't measure it in dollars, and what I'm trying to say is, let's say, the CEO was like, You know what, this is actually going to, it's at a point where it's becoming harmful to the public and our users, we have so many users that the domino effect of this is going to be problematic for just the entire world, right? When you look at events, like, you know, the takeover in the Capitol, or just some of the things that happen around the world, you're that you're influencing literally how people are living their life for what they're choosing to do, or what stance they take, you got to be a little bit more careful. Yeah, I wish it was the approach of let me be transparent, and come out and say, Hey, we're choosing to limit XYZ, which I'm sure at that point, when when the platform is so big, you can't satisfy nobody. If you were to come out and say, oh, we're gonna limit this type of content, because it's creating this type of effect. I'm sure some people are gonna come out with it, well, give me the opportunity to choose but in my opinion, I think when you stick to the facts and say, hey, we've let it run on for a while, here's what some of the impacts have been or negative side effects as a result of it. So because of that, now we're going to take this approach so it's like if you can be more transparent, you don't give ammo to was a whistleblower to come out. And kind of like show, flashy, you know, flash your cards and be like, oh, wow, look at what they've been doing behind the scenes this whole time. So I think from a business standpoint, the way you move and operate, if you can, if you can not keep any skeletons in your closet, and and be more proactive about, hey, we're, we want to make things right, we won't be perfect, we won't satisfy everyone because we're too big, somebody is going to feel offended or not happy with the stance that we're taking. But I don't give ammo to anyone to come out and kind of do this whole 60 minutes thing. So I'd like to kind of see the balance of it, too. from a business standpoint. Like if you're a leader in that type of position, be more transparent. Don't leave any skeletons in the closet.

Nicky Saunders  27:22  
That's good. So, um, let's talk about Tina Turner. Wish I had like, a sound for her. Like her little sound, but I don't. The headline is another blockbuster deal. Tina Turner sells her entitle. entitled, entire Oh, my goodness, entire catalog to BMG, right. And it was reported that this was a fifty million dollar deal. Now, there has been a lot of mixed reviews about this a lot of criticism, because some people were like, how could you sell your whole catalog? Like, why would you do that? Why would you give that up? Right? And I think this is where me and moose are gonna kind of go back and forth about it. Because for me, I'm gonna be honest. She's 81 years old. It's $50 million dollars. She's 81 years old. I'm not sure I'm not saying, Oh girl is gonna die anytime soon. I'm not saying that. But I think for the amount that she possibly has left. I think 50 and including the stuff that she's already had, and ensuring that her music and her legacy kind of lives on with this particular move. I don't necessarily see anything wrong with this particular move. Now there's other people who have sold their whole catalogue for a crazy amount of money as well. But they're not 81 you see what I’m saying like, they're the kind of, like, younger, a lot younger. right. I think even the dream did something the dream is like 40 right? Um, there's, there's been other people but I'll probably look it up when you're talking. But what is your stance? Is this a good move is a bad move. She's still signed to Warner Brothers. Right um, so she's still catching some royalties here and there, based off her Like, I don't know, decade's worth of music. It's not like she's out here about to make another album and stuff. It's just I don't know I with this. Yeah I’m not

Mostafa Ghonim  30:12  
Yeah it's interesting for I feel like we got to speak in the allegedly’s here just because there's a lot of unknown factors. Let's speak with some hypotheticals. Right? Okay, so so I think for me, I just looked up her net worth. Yes. And her net worth is 250 million. So okay. Yeah, you got you got some some big paper there. So So the way I look at it is I if I, if I would, if I were, I'm not gonna say a Tina, because that sounds weird. If I were Tom Adams, make sure maybe abbreviate her name to Tom Turner, right? I don't know. But I'm just I'm joking. If I were, if I were, right, if I, if I were her position, right, I would consider that number against my net worth. So 50 million, you have a 250 million net worth? That's about 20% of what you currently have. Okay. Is it worth it? And I almost spin the question back to you. Is it worth it? To give away your entire? Or your lifetimes body of work? For 20%? of what you're currently worth? Do you think it's worth it?

Nicky Saunders  31:28  
So this is the thing I don't know. If Okay, so who was it, there was somebody who was saying, if you don't know what to do with your masters, they're pretty much worthless. Right? She may not know what to do with it, right? Or she may not own it, per say, like maybe her and Warner Brothers came up with, with a deal with them, so she could finally get some money off of it. And we don't necessarily know, the back end, because I'm thinking back then. This is why some people are just coming out with their albums and their albums came out in the 90s in the 80s. And now you're starting to see them on streaming, because some people are remaking their albums, so they can own the Masters, because they don't own it, they weren't going to put it on streaming, right. So we don't know if that's one of those kind of situations where she didn't really have a hold of it, per say And if we're, if were, when you read the articles, pretty much everywhere, us today, CNN even covered it, Rolling Stones, and she was like, I feel full confidence that, you know, my legacy, and my music is going to live on, you know, even pass me. And for me, I'm like, if your kids are good, if your grandkids are good, you know, everything's taken care of your net worth is amazing. At 81 getting a good guop of money when you were coming up not you Moose, but when she was coming up 50 mil was probably not even heard of. Right. You know, you have to put that kind of under consideration now. If she was, I don't know, in this era. Right? And understanding ownership a little bit more, I would say maybe things would be different. But she didn't. She didn't come from this era where now owning your masters is something normal, you know, doing things independently is the the thing to do according to certain people, right? She comes from I gotta be on a record label. I need the machine. I need certain groups of people to always have their hands in my career. And she may be perfectly fine with that. I don't know. I just know. At one. I cannot necessarily be mad that you just got 50 mil its really an undisclosed deal, but they're rumoring it to be 50 mil I can't necessarily be mad at that when you already have a good amount of money in the bank.

Mostafa Ghonim  34:51  
Nah it’s the truth. yeah, no, I can't argue with that. I mean, that's a big payoff. 50 million at the end of the day. Thats still a big payoff.

Nicky Saunders  34:59  
It's not one mil It’s not 20 mil.

Mostafa Ghonim  35:02  
Yeah, you in a figure. I mean, yeah, nice. That's a big number.

Nicky Saunders  35:07  
I'm just, that's just me. This is, this is me, but kind of transitioning into the talk of ownership independent, the machine all that great stuff. Moose actually gave me a really dope clip from Russ on this. What was the podcast or the series called?

Mostafa Ghonim  35:35  
Or the idea? Gen idea generation is the name of the show? 

Nicky Saunders  35:39  
Yeah, they came up with a really good series. And Russ was the very first guest. And Russ is is an interesting character. Like he is a very successful rapper that people don't necessarily like, for some reason, but made a lot of money. We're gonna talk about it. But here's the clip that Moose introduced me to if it wants to play, of course, right? Hold on people. You know how this goes sometimes? Um, but as we wait for it, hmm.

Mostafa Ghonim  36:20  
I say, Hey, I'm just telling people hang tight, watch it play twice or something

Nicky Saunders  36:23  
right? It’s gonna play twice. And while I'm talking, itll come on 

Unknown Speaker  36:26  
I learned that the whole industry is ran by just like, it's a couple people. If you know that guy at Spotify, that guy at Apple, you know, this person, that rhythm radio and this person, that urban radio, between four people, you can run the whole? Which is why at a certain point you decided you didn't need because I knew the four people and had the money. Like I, I'm good from here?

Nicky Saunders  36:54  
Moose

Mostafa Ghonim  36:56  
Yeah, I think the conversation on this one is what's more important resources or relationships. And the reason why I'm saying that is because and granted in this clip, he's telling you he already had the money, he had the resources, let's say, but in some cases, if you don't have the resources, or if you have the resources without the relationships, I don't know that it clicks. So maybe it's a combination of both. But I think what I'm getting out of this here is the importance of Yes, have your own resources, have your own funds, right? I think when you fund yourself or when you have the money to add, you have your own financial backing, that is you have more freedom and flexibility as to who you can work with who you don't want to work with. Because you're not financially tied to one specific source, right. So I've noticed that that's always a key ingredient, especially if you're someone who cares about freedom and flexibility. But with that, just make sure that you also focus on the relationship. And and I think that's the second part of the the key, if you will, that he mentions too, it's like, oh, I knew that people and I had the money. So I know, I know, early in my career, I didn't focus on the relationships, not that I didn't care about other people. But for me, I just always felt like I don't want to be a burden onto other people, or on to others. So it's best for me to just rely on self. And then over the last 12 to 18 months or so I've started to realize like, no matter how quiet quote unquote resourceful you are, there are certain relationships are key relationships that are absolutely necessary for you to continue on your journey, or on your growth track. So what I'm seeing here, and I think this confirms for me nicks, just the importance of both resources and relationships as as a very important thing to have on lock, if you're going to go down that independent route.

Nicky Saunders  38:59  
I like that. I like that actually wrote it down, might be too tight, there might be some potential potential. Um, I do agree with you. Of course, he's talking about, you know, coming from a major label and understanding the game. And this is where I love to talk about it because it's just leverage. Like, he did the whole major label. He released some some albums on a bit on it and experienced the ups and downs and he made the relationships like you said, so when you're making the decisions of Okay, what is the point of making these these particular moves? Why am I joining this platform? Why am I partnering with these people? Why am I you know, working with this particular organization What are you trying to get out of it? And when you get all the stuff that you're trying to get out of it, what is your exit strategy? So, for him, he's like, Look, I realized the game, I got it. Now, why do I need to be on this anymore? It's not it's not working anymore. Because I feel like I could do this on my own. And I think there's nothing wrong with that with feeling like, Yo, I got all the resources that were tapped out. Like you, there's nothing more you could do for me that I can't do for myself. So I think for anybody, you have to look at the whole scope of who's, who's talking to who, who's the, you know, the decision makers? How can I get good with them? Or even just understanding? Like I'll say, from a personal brand standpoint, you know, who's who's the marketer that's making sure all these things are done, like who's the ads person who's, you know, who's turning up? Who is, who's running the admin stuff, like, Who's booking this particular thing. If I know all this, I don't necessarily need to be here anymore. So you have to look at it like there is a plus, of, let's say, joining a team, joining an organization, doing a nine to five, jumping on a big platform, collaborating with certain people, because you're going to be introduced to resources and exposed to certain things that you weren't before. But when you have them, what is your exit strategy? That's what I say

Mostafa Ghonim  42:10  
Okay, hold up. I got a question for you. Do you think do you think that move for him was a matter of efficiency? Because he doesn't have to put his destiny destiny in the hands of the label? Where they're, they're business people? They're thinking like, Oh, I got Nicky, I got Russ. I got Moose. Yeah, which one of these 3 am I going to put, you know, out front and center because I can't do all three, quite frankly, like resources are limited to an extent. So do you think it's a matter of him lied? Let me cut out the middleman so that I can be more control of my own blow up, as opposed to rely on the label to do it? Do you think it's a matter of efficiency? Or do you think it's more of maybe something else, because the way I look at it is like, I think the one of the benefits of being tied to a group, or tied to a big company, or a team or a large machine and platform etc, is that you're always you're always front and center some way somehow, right? Like, if you get to a point where your team is so good, your brand is so good, your business is so good, that you guys are always on on Front Street, right? in people's minds, when they see that brand, they think of you too. So even if you're not wanting to you weren't the key stakeholder in that move. Like let's say, you guys launched something that was down the alley of I don't know, branding, right? But I'm not necessarily in that in that space so much. But people are still saying like, Oh, yeah, no, no, that's that's him to write. And then the flip side of it, we learn something down business or flight assessment. And although maybe that's not your particular space, or I don't know, vows per space, I'm just saying anyone, but in the eyes of other people, they're saying, Oh, no, no, no, that's her too because that's them as a unit. So I guess I'm trying to see what's a better approach is it better to say nah, I want to be more efficient, because I can be direct to consumer I don't got to put my destiny in the hands of somebody else waiting for them to give me my turn my season my etc? Or is it let me be a part of the mix because I'm always in the conversation. I may not be the key. I may not. I may not be like, you know, the the prime keynote or whatever, but I'm still a part of the conversation. So what do you think is is the is a bigger move or a better move?

Nicky Saunders  44:49  
I think it depends on the person, to be honest with you, I don't think Yeah, both of those situations. is like either or he says, Hey, like, I think Certain people need to stay in the mix, right? Just depending where they are, or the benefits that it has, by staying in the mix, you some people may not have the same benefits if they did that on their own, right, or maybe see that this lag actually last longer if maybe I'm not playing number one or number two, but they know I'm part of the group. And so it still makes me relevant. And so I can still be successful by just being relevant. So that could be one of those situations. And then there's some people that's like, he said, I don't, I don't have to do meetings, no more. I don't want to wait. Like, we weren't seeing eye to eye on certain things. And I know what to do. I'm pretty much a one stop shop, like, media, visual stuff is already in house, I just got to go to this person, this person, this person, I don't have to wait on this big machine to give me the green light. Now, not everybody is that way. You know, some people prefer to be, yo, look, let me just be in the back. Let me be in the mix. But let me be in the back. You know, where other people are, like prime example. Shout out to Carl, Carl's one of those, like, keep me like I I'll do the front. Pause the sun horrible. I'll be in the front, in Hey. All right, sorry, um, I'll be I'll be in the front, like, in front of the camera, all that great stuff once in a while. But I can't, like, I don't want to run this, I don't want to take all the control. I'm cool with being led. I'm cool with being in a group that I can leverage. Like, I'm cool with that, um, where maybe for myself, I'm like, I'm, I'm over this last minute stuff I'm over, like, what is what else needs to be learn? So I can leverage and do an exit strategy, like, so we're two different things, still working on the same team. But one is really looking at the relationships and the resources to make bigger moves, where the other one is, looking at relationships and resources, and just staying there and being content with it.

Mostafa Ghonim  48:02  
Yeah, you know, one of the questions I kind of had to ask them, I asked myself, I think just this last week, actually, is like, I wonder how certain people move when they feel like their potential is not being fully capitalized on? Hmm. And I know the politically correct answer is to be like, well, it's your potential, you should be like, yes. And I think it's easier said than done in a lot of different cases. Right? But But, yeah, it puts you in that position where you kind of like, gotta think, like, yo, is an exit strategy best? Is it? Just? I don't know, you don't say it? Like, it's definitely a question that I think and again, for the listeners, I hope you can use a little bit from Russ. And even from our own experiences, at some point in that journey. There are pros and cons to every side you choose, when you go independent, you got to make the decision that you are going to be the number one guy in your company in your brand. Because guess what you are, right. So like, there are no opportunities for somebody to pick up the slack. There are no opportunities for you to delegate and hope that they can get it done the way you you know that because they have some level of ownership into it. Or there are no opportunities for you to just kind of take a backseat, because mentally, emotionally, physically, you're going through some stuff. There's really no off days, or opportunities to lay out when you're independent, especially. And again, I'll kind of leave some room for error here, especially if your industry relies on you to show up every day, or you've built a reputation as someone who shows up every day. Right? And the cool thing I like about Russ is that before he even signed to the label, and I think it was 2017 he had put out 300 independent songs. Yep, you know, so like he had put in a crazy amount of work. So for anyone starting Off and the article that I read and I think I shared it with you is that the article that I read, he said, like, you know, when you're a startup creator and and I never heard the two terms used together because like startup is only talked about an entrepreneurship space. So I bootstrap startup, etc. But a startup creator is a really real thing, especially in today's world, you're starting up because of the equipment, you might need to buy the things that you might need to invest in the resources you might need to gather. And this one article was saying that, if you get to a point, and the pieces of content that you're creating, are costing you hundreds or 1000s of dollars, you're not going to have a long Lifeline here, because you're just starting, that means there's not much money coming in on a single piece of content for you to invest that much money. So being resourceful is important. But again, at the same time, you really have no opportunities to take any time off. But then, you know, saying, and then and I'm just saying, like, Yeah, but the flip side of it, you stay tied to a machine, there are some seasons where you're not hot, like the labels not gonna push you as their main number one, maybe they got their focus on the new guy, maybe they got their focus on the old guy, or the old guy who's been kind of like, laid off. So okay, let's give her some love again. So you, you got to kind of play the game in terms of figuring out okay, what's my turn again? How can I whatever, and that's not a fun space to be in. So there's definitely pros and cons to both sides of the table.

Nicky Saunders  51:24  
And I have to agree with the when you were like, you know, a deal fault with the potential bla bla bla, like, And this is, this is a real life situation, right? To where you're, you're told, go be great, right? But there is not an environment to allow you to be great, because there's so many other factors in the platform, or the environment that you're in. So yes, it is important to be great, and maximise on your full potential. But you have entrusted the platform company collaboration that you're in that they will position you as well, to maximize on your potential, and it becomes harder and harder to where you're almost doing it. I don't know. You're supposed to give your all to let's say, you're at your nine to five to this, and you're doing 12 hours, 14 hours a day. For a particular project, when are you supposed to be great. Now granted, some people are going to listen and be like, spending a night if it's that important bubble, but Ma'am, yeah, sir. Yeah, I agree. I do. I've done both. I'm not saying either, or, what I am saying is when you grow up, right? When you grow up, you want to make sure that you position yourself to an environment that allows you to tap into your full potential. Yeah. And if you were not in that, and it is more of a hassle or not, not all the way celebrated. When you are in your full potential. You have to reevaluate some things. It's like, wait, that's a whole nother conversation. Feel me. Right, right. Right, right. But now let's talk about the flip side, right? So if if we're talking about Russ, and how he went from a major to, let's say, independent, right, saw success in both, but really took the resources and went independent. We know a different situation where somebody was full independent, and went into a major, which is, of course, late, great. nipsey hussle nipsey hussle. Now, in this clip that we're going to play, it speaks about how he is how he's referencing the reason of why he went to a major because he saw roughriders, he saw no limit he saw Rockefeller and what they've done by partnering With a label, and this is the clip we got.

Nipsey Hussle  55:04  
These dope brands that was homegrown, you know uh movements that turned into mainstream situations. But they did it on a terms in a in a they leveraged in the type of deals that you know, they maintain their executive status as they went into the mainstream into the majors. And that was my goal, you know, I'm saying it's leverage here to operate as a as a partner upgrade as a business is all money and not like, I gotta go in is nipsey by myself, you know, I mean, because, you know, from my experience in studying the game, you lose in power, there is a lot more power, um, being able to operate as a company.

Nicky Saunders  55:54  
So, um, there's two ways I want to take this, right. first way is I like how he referenced, you know, Rockefeller and everything. You can watch the full interview this, but he said prior to, but using pretty much the opposite of what we were talking about Russ, using the labels to leverage to get to a higher point, right. He's already created a buzz he already created a fan base. At that time, he already sold $1,000 mixtapes, not even the $100 mixtapes he was at mailbox money, which was $1,000. And those sold out as well. So, the person who asked him, the question was like, yo, to me, I don't see the point of you going to a label, but explain to me why you're going to a label. And I think this is more where it stops becoming a meeting, and it becomes a wee thing. So of course, him himself nipsey can continue to stay successful. But he has a team, he had created a record label, and he understood, maybe they may not have the same success the same way I do. Let me take the success that I have. And the leverage I have create a partnership to make sure everybody else is good. So I look at it like that, if we see the people who were running the the labels as far as like Rockefeller, and no limit and things like that. They always had a point person, and because of that point person, they were able to get the partnerships. So I think that is a smart move with clearly understanding, this is what I give to the table, this is what I have, I don't necessarily need you. But I'm creating this, let's figure out how we could work together. I like that right now. Something interesting, he said is, you know, with a company, you have more power. So as an individual, you're okay. They may be interested in some type of partnerships. But when you have more to put on the table, like a company, then that conversations a little bit different. And it actually made me think like, you know, even in some of the situations that we're in, right, like, as an individual, we're great. But if we had offered something, as far as what we constructed from a company situation, this is what we have. Boom. Is it true? That? Yeah, okay, that's a little bit that that gives us a little bit more power. Because I'm from a record label standpoint, I can understand, yo, you're giving us more people that we could possibly make money off of, and understanding you already have a fan base, this is not from scratch, you already are cash flow compared to other people. So when you look at it from a different side, when you are now creating something from ground level, instead of just you trying to get certain deals and partnerships, what are you creating, that is already cash flow that you could be like, yeah, we could do something but it has to involve This, this is what got me thinking,

Mostafa Ghonim  1:00:03  
yeah, no, that's a great thought process. And I was even gonna just add to that, that in addition to cash flow, you've got to think credibility, right? Because I think that for some reason, there's just that traditional idea of your there's power in numbers. So when you step up to the plate, and you say, Oh, um, I represent the company, and you're able to use a credible name, like, and it just let's just use for this case, the music business where we're saying Def Jam, or Rockefeller, whoever it may be, right? Well, the association is that this is a well name, a well known brand, or a well known company is the same thing as when you step up and say, Oh, I'm the CEO of Apple, yes, I Whoa, apple, like, you're gonna get a different level of respect. So regardless of who you're doing business with, they're gonna respond to you differently, because they're now recognizing that you are responsible for a major company more credibility. So I think in addition to cash flow, we also got to be asking ourselves, man, how can I establish that credibility that even if I, at any moment, detach myself from a major company, or a major label, right, do I does my name hold enough credibility that just the name will open doors for me, that's a that's a big, that's a big piece of it, too. And that's difficult to measure, like, again, it puts you down those path, or put you down the path of things that are difficult to measure. But that's why it's key to have the relationships like we even briefly chatted this week about the person who, who created idea generation to show that we got that clip from from Russ. And we were like, Oh, yeah, that makes sense. His partner worked at Def Jam for two years, he was with complex, they have all these relationships, when they launched their new show. It's easy to open up with a Russ and the manager, J. Cole, because Well, you've worked in that industry for two years, you pull the relationships with you into your next endeavor. So I think, yeah, Im definitely With you on that. And I would also add credibility to the mix.

Nicky Saunders  1:01:58  
Yeah, and I think what I like about each of the moves, whether it's from nip or Rockefellers, like, they still own what they created, right? It's not going to these major labels and giving it all up just for a percentage or something, or just, you know, exposure, right? I think. And I think that also plays a role. Like, if you just go for self, you may have to give up those things, you may have to just go into bed with them for the exposure, right? But where, if you come with a group, right, then and a establish group at that, that's a different conversation, but as well as now all these people are going to be able to have the relations, all these people are able to have the different sources that others couldn't, you know, so that's why I'm like, I can understand the the Nip move, because now it's, I've seen success, success, but let the whole company now see worldwide success. And that's a different type. I can't do that. on my own. in this industry. I know, I can leverage these particular people, this machine to make sure the company is good, I'm good. But the company needs to be worldwide. And with that move, you know, victory lap came out. And, you know, the success of that was incredible. Yeah. And how they promoted him was incredible, compared to maybe the very local, you know, word of mouth that he was doing, which was still success, but it's a power move on his end, that we don't know how long that partnership would have last. He could have been used it and went and finished that contract. We don't know. But now we seen from pretty much, you know, two sides of Alright, I wasn't. I was in a major partnership. And I left and then I'm going to a partnership. And kind of the pros and cons of both. 

Mostafa Ghonim  1:04:50  
Yeah no, for sure. For sure. I even heard something on an interview with him. Just yesterday that through the collaboration, they got the idea to delay The album, but they were going to put more resources behind them so that he can release the weekend of the NBA All Star game. And that's like, All Star weekend in LA. They were like, Yeah, that would be a huge opportunity. And then there were like a few things back to back that just helped them. Absolutely, you know, explode with with that specific rollout. So you're right, like, there are some times where a collab with the machine can help you explode if you've almost maxed them maximize your exposure. And yeah, it would have been interesting, I'm sure somebody who starts independent and loves their freedom is going to have some form of exit strategy implemented into the contract. Somewhere like, hey, let's do this together. But I do want to be able to, you know, cut ties, at any moment, it gets too crazy. Which, which, you know, I mean, everything happens for a reason, but I did hear about that. So I do think you're spot on to with that.

Nicky Saunders  1:06:02  
How do you feel about that episode? How’d you feel?

Mostafa Ghonim  1:06:05  
man, this was this was cool. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's relevant to just everyday decisions that, you know, I'm sure people are gonna have to make at some point as they're building their brands and their business. Heck, this is stuff that, you know, I'm sure at some point, if we're not already thinking about it, you know, having to navigate on our own as well. So yes, cool.

Nicky Saunders  1:06:23  
And make sure you join the after show, right? For my apple podcast people. We got one clip that we couldn't talk about, but we're gonna talk about on the after show. So for my podcast listeners, well, Apple podcast listeners, all access squad, go subscribe today. Three days free. You know what I mean? so you can hear some of the old after shows. It's really dope. But um, we're going to talk about when you don't really bet on yourself. I think it's gonna be interesting. Yeah, you know what I mean? Yeah. So also follow us everywhere at Nicky and moose every single place. Shout out to everybody on Instagram with the over 3000 followers almost 3000 on YouTube and we're almost at 2000 on Facebook. Okay, and this is gonna be funny because we're gonna look back at this and be like, Hey, we were that low. This is crazy. So but this is so big for us so shout out to all our our supporters shout out to everybody who shares this continue to share it all right. Continue and shoutout to like Japan who listens to us you know crazy um, moose real quick. What you got coming up you good? He's been traveling people he is he is a I feel like he's gonna move to DC or something but he has been travel he is a whole trainer speaker person.

Mostafa Ghonim  1:08:08  
Yeah, yeah. Now things are going good man. I mean, I'm, I am back in DC later this month, October 21. I'm going to spend a week in Florida October 27 to the end of the month I have now a godfather, my god daughters name is alayna announcing that here on the podcast just born yesterday at 5:23pm so super, super excited about that man. So we're gonna go spend time with a goddaughter at the at the end of the month and then some stuff in December we'll go west coast West Coast December and possibly Hawaii there's actually some talks about some Hawaii stuff so I'll keep you posted on that. Yeah, okay.

Nicky Saunders  1:08:56  
Our Hawaii listeners watch out moose maybe may be there feel me? Treat him nice talk to him nice

Mostafa Ghonim  1:09:07  
Talk about it though. I heard I heard there are some things cooking or some some a lil a lil A lil Some some cooking on and on. I'm just being annoying now go for it talking about it.

Nicky Saunders  1:09:22  
All I'm gonna say is deeperthanthebrand.com That's all I'm gonna say. Go check it out. If you have some time. Feel Me You may like something over there may not but you know, but moose final words.

Mostafa Ghonim  1:09:41  
Yeah, I think our word for this week has got to be priorities. I came across something that said if everything is important, then nothing is important. If everything is important, then nothing is important. Right? There are some things that just naturally are going to be more important than others. So get your priorities straight. There's no way everything you're doing is top priority. There's got to be something that's more important than the other