Episode 87 - How To Balance Being A CEO And A Creator

Nicky Saunders  
whats poppin whats poppin whats poppin. Welcome to Nicky and moose. Im Nicky, that's moose. What's up moose?

Mostafa Ghonim  
What up y'all?

Nicky Saunders  
and welcome to episode 87. And on this episode, of course, we got a lot to talk about. I'm still in my bag about clarity. So we're going to talk about imagination. We're going to talk about impostor syndrome and selling the problems, the ups and downs about that. The struggles of a creator and can you be a creator, and a CEO at the same time Moose how are we feeling about this episode?

Mostafa Ghonim  
This one is good. This one has good balance, too. It really focused on both the creative side and the entrepreneurship and business side of it. So well, yeah, those tend to be my favorite. So I'm excited for it. Let's get it

Nicky Saunders  
I tried over here. Anyways, let's get into this intro.

Jaymie Jordan  
Two kids from Queens. Cut from a different cloth. Now joining forces helping you to elevate your personal brand. Yeah, I'm talking about Nicky and Moose, bringing you a never before seen perspective. Instead, the mindset, the mentality, the behaviors, the driving force, and more importantly, the stories behind the people and brands that you know and love the most.

Nicky Saunders  
And, as always shout out to all our audio listeners, our viewer, people I was gonna say viewership I don't know if that's the right word, but it sounded great. Right? Shout out to y'all. But first and foremost, this would not be possible without Ecamm live. Right? All in one live stream and video production low key. The secret weapon for remote podcast. This is how we're able to get the audio do the video with barely any type of editing. So shout out to Ecamm live moose. How're we feeling?

Mostafa Ghonim  
I'm feeling pretty good. Feeling pretty good. It's been a great week. I'm excited for this one. We're continuing to edge closer to 100 so is only getting better. Yeah, I'm excited for it.

Nicky Saunders  
Where? Where are you located? You look like a different looks like a different background, sir. For our audio listeners. I'm not seeing a city vibe. I'm not. It looks very warm and comforting. What's up?

Mostafa Ghonim  
Yeah, yeah, no, it's not my warm normal setup. I I've been away. So actually, I went from man, the man's conference last week straight to Florida. And we did a couple pitstops in Florida. And then we're celebrating our one year anniversary actually, we just made today. We're recording this. Yeah, the day that we're recording this we're celebrating a year in marriage, which has been incredible shout out to to my wonderful wife 

Nicky Saunders  
Wish we had a aww, i need a aww 

Mostafa Ghonim  
Thanks. Yeah. Yeah. No, but I so it was kind of crazy. I I came back from Florida. We took the same flight to New York's dropped her off in New York. And then I continued into DC. So I'm in DC right now I got some meetings that I'm not going out tomorrow with a client so I'll be here before I head back home tomorrow night. So got to do the remote podcast. Double remote because we're already remote but this is a double remote because I'm not at my usual home base. So yeah. This This holds up like

Nicky Saunders  
it will it will set out set it to the one year anniversary aka the year anniversary of where I wasn't invited to the wedding. So

Mostafa Ghonim  
We're gonna talk about that part too

Nicky Saunders  
Oh, absolutely absolutely. It's been a year since since that mistake. It's okay. So Right. So Right. But let's get into this episode. First and foremost, um, I'm still on this whole journey of clarity and, you know, explore experimenting, but coming in tune with imagination and like new ideas and things like that. And of course, I saw something that I wanted to talk about. Shout out to EYL, shout out to Steve Hart. Yeah, we just we just Isaiah just put just like you While again, or something, right? Um, but they, of course, did such a dope. I wish I could go over that, that interview like, every single time because that interview with Steve Harvey was so far but he said, such a bar about imagination that I wanted to talk about that I feel that as creators and entrepreneurs, we need to tap in a little bit more, at least for me. I don't know about everybody, but I feel like it could help at least one other person. So let's listen.

Steve Harvey  
Albert Einstein had a quote, he said, imagination is everything. It's the preview of life's coming attractions. It's like when you go to a movie, and you get the popcorn and you sit down before the movie star, what do they show? They show you a preview of what are coming attractions. Have you ever seen a preview, and then the movie aint come out? Once you see the preview, it's going to be on your bleed. And that's how that's how imagination works in your life.

Nicky Saunders  
So, so here's my thing, right? I think we don't put, I'm not saying I'm not gonna speak for everybody. I'm gonna speak for me. I don't put that much emphasis on my imagination. Like, I put emphasis on ideas. But not my imagination. Does that make sense? Yeah, like, I see a lot of things. I mean, the natural creator that I am. And I'm, when I listened to that. I was more like, everything happens for a reason. Even our imaginations but I think as growing up, we, it was always put as something that doesn't really exist. It's like, oh, it's just your imagination. This is just your imagination. This light is always downplayed. So I put more emphasis on ideas rather than, than just the totality of imagination. And when he said that, I was like, going back to Everything happens for a reason, even the things that appear in your mind, regardless if other people could see it or not. And I'm like, what? Then of course, he said, Albert Einstein, you can't go wrong with you know,

Mostafa Ghonim  
oh, my God becomes deep.

Nicky Saunders  
Yeah, yeah. He could have said that. But then Right. Right out now. So

Mostafa Ghonim  
official now? Oh, yes. Official now.

Nicky Saunders  
Yeah, but like, I think, I think my question is, how do we, like extract that downplaying that we've gotten growing up? And putting more power to the imagination, then as as we're older, because we can get away with so much like, people come up with imaginary friends and things like that, right? Who's not to say they're just not speaking a certain friend into existence? You know, I'm not trying to get too deep. That was that a little that could have went there. But I'm not trying to right? but like, it was always like, oh, that's your imagination. You just, but how do we extract that? How do we give more power to it?

Mostafa Ghonim  
Yeah, it's crazy, man. I think as we get older, we just tend to conform. We, we follow these rules that somebody made up. Without without any good reason, we just say, okay, that's the way it's got to be and you just follow it. And you don't know if it's any better, if it's of any benefit to you. If it can help you figure and hurt you, and you're on your path, you just do it because other people are doing it. But the way to break out of it is you got to start breaking those rules, like go against the grain, push yourself to do things that you normally wouldn't do. You know, because like even when you talk about this idea of like abundance, right? Like when I think of I think of imagination as abundance, right? And we were literally in the beach today. And of course as a New Yorker when you see your feet in water, you're like whoa, this is different. Like you don't go to beaches in New York and see nothing of your body in the water. You're in New York, you're like, Okay, I guess I'm in the water. But Florida was a cool vibe like you actually got to see your your feet whatever. So we were talking while we were in the water and then like you can Look up, and you're the water runs forever. You look into the sky, clear blue skies, they run forever. And it's like you're the creator created things in abundance and created us in that same format. So where does this concept have limitation? Or there isn't enough to go around for everybody and for my desires? What does that come from? It comes from conforming, it comes from us following these rules that mean nothing that we've put value on and say, yeah, now it's got to be this way. So I think the more that we challenge ourselves, and we surround ourselves with others who are constantly looking to go against the grain and just do things a little bit differently, the more that we'll see that it's okay. And more importantly, that it's been entirely possible to create things that you don't yet see. And allow them to come into your life that way.

Nicky Saunders  
Yeah, it it goes along with the book, I was reading The Four Agreements, I think that's what's called The Four Agreements, right? Yeah. Um, when you said that, like, it instantly makes me think of like, the, I think the first thing they said was like, everything's a dream. When you're up, it's a dream. And when you're asleep, that's a dream, right? It's just that we, as we grow up, they, like compared us to like dogs, like we get domesticated like animals, right, to think certain ways and to do certain things. And so we were trained that, you know, our imaginations, our dreams aren't necessarily real, right? But if we could clear all thoughts of that and strip it away, then true freedom comes in. I sound very deep, I don't mean to sound this, this is moose, kind of talk, I did

Mostafa Ghonim  
this, I swear to you, I swear to you, and this and this is why I always say like, I don't intend to be deep. But this is why this entrepreneurship creative journey is more of an inside job than it is an outside job. Like all the technical stuff, like, yeah, it's important. But without this part right here without the stuff between your two ears, like operating right, and you thinking and really being able to process correctly about just your own thoughts, your emotions, your desires, without that none of that stuff, manifest or unfold. So yeah, I don't ever think is deep, but I just think it confirms why we keep circling back to these points and saying, yo, this is the stuff that really matters, you get down this part. The rest of the stuff is actually a lot easier than you think.

Nicky Saunders  
This is a fact is a fact. But but going along with, you know, downplaying certain things and downplaying how good we are our imagination, everything like that. I was watching an interview of Lewis Howes and Van Leighton right. And he says some so deep about a topic we don't really talk about, which is imposter syndrome. So let's go listen to this.

Lewis Howes & Van Leighton  
But I doubt is that I belong here. I belong where? Where I'm at. I don't see anything special about TMZ Kanye West comes into the row. Mediacom, you have this moment, right. And then all sudden new things change off. Oh, and you were at TMZ for how long at that point. Seven years? You don't I think about I think about what happens if Kanye never walks into the room? Where would you be? Yeah, everyone then sort of goes, Hey, this guy's telling you this and I get a chance to display all of these things to different people. I mean, grafter seven years, and after seven years of doing basically the same thing every day and putting on every day and proving myself there. One moment changes it, I think to myself, if that never happens, then what happens to me? Like what if, like, what is really, inside of me, that makes me think that I should be telling people anything. I think impostor syndrome is sometimes something that a lot of people have to kind of have to kind of get through.

Mostafa Ghonim  
Yeah, it's so crazy man. I think it's one of those battles that a lot of us go through, because, and again, talking about conformity, seeing what success looks like online, a lot of us feel that the only way to be successful is to be in a position where we have to teach lead and be owners of some sort. Right? So there is a little bit of pressure that comes with it because you're saying well, I want to be successful. And if that's what success looks like, then I guess I got to do that. But you can go almost against what you really feel is right, or what is really you. And there's some friction along the path. You're like, why am I here? For some people, it works out simply because of a variety of different reasons, you might have been an early adopter, on a on a on a platform got tremendous opportunity, and people were willing to listen to you. You might actually be pretty skilled or charismatic, and people gravitated to your intelligence and your wit or your style, or whatever it may be. And you got the attention that you want. But the interesting thing is, I'm actually in a season in my life now where I am. And take this with a grain of salt, right? Because I'm not saying that I'm on the stratosphere of, of a limelight, but I'm like, Yeah, I don't know if I want to be famous. Like, I don't want to, I don't know that I want to be known like that. Because I'm becoming more in tune with the things that come with the fame. And that's the part that I realized is really not for everybody. So could it be imposter syndrome? It could be but I don't think it is because it has a level of intelligence around the things that come with it. So yeah, we'll always talk ourselves down, many of us will especially. But I do think a lot, a big part of it is because we're seeing that today, success means I'm in a position to teach somebody or tell them how to live a certain way, which is not always the case. Like, I don't think you need to be in those positions to be successful or to be considered successful.

Nicky Saunders  
I can see where you're going with that. its cool, because I actually tweeted something today. Similar to is like, Yo, I don't want to be where every one is like chillin with everybody. I don't want to be outside. But I want to be respected everywhere. So I don't want to be everywhere. But I want to be respected everywhere. Right. So and, I mean, there's, there's multiple reasons for that. But I feel that the respect, and you know, of me, you just don't always see me, I think has a has a better feeling. Now I have no problem. People knowing of me, um, me being outside too much. Not all the time. But you know, here and there. I don't I don't mind that. Right. I think with this particular clip. It's a, it's a thing that a lot of people actually go through. And they even stated like, I don't find myself special. And I have I'm very aware that impostor syndrome is a situation. But I also believe that it is definitely a confidence thing. Like, of just whether it is something that you're not confident somewhere else, maybe you're very confident in your craft, but there's something else that's happening, that almost makes you doubt yourself of how good you could speak or your perspective matters or because something else outside of that may be a little lacking. Right, whatever it is, that's, that's, that's my opinion, and, and those people who think that are great at what they do, and we value their perspective, we value their their point of view. And they're like, Nah, it's not that deep. And I think it's, it's, it's above because, you know, some people will be like, Oh, it's being humble. No, I think it's above being I think they honestly feel you I'm not I'm not that deep dog like, how, how am I getting this success? Maybe and then they start comparing over this person over this front, why would people but I always go back to everybody has an audience. Like your voice is needed to certain individuals or group of people or culture, like it's, it's needed. It may not be for everybody, but it's needed and we have to step more into that. You know, like, I I'll take this podcast version, it's not for everybody. I bet it's gonna rock with it. You know, some people be like, Who in the world are these two? to people, right? Cool I'm expecting that some people may not like the way I speak the way moose speaks, I'm okay with that. But somebody does, and that doesn't lower my value, or lower the perspective that I have, just because these people don't like it, right, or, um, it's not accepted over here. Like, I think we all have certain craft certain voices, certain skills for reason. And we just got to step more into it. But it is a struggle. When you have exposure to a lot of things, that's where I feel the imposter syndrome comes into it. And I think we hear more and more about it, because of how much we're exposed to everybody. So we see what this person is doing, what's that person doing? And then you're looking at yourself like, Oh, hold on, like, like he said, I've been here seven years. But if this didn't happen, where would I be? If he probably still have a whole destiny of blowing up? It may not have been at that moment. But if the Kanye situation didn't happen, it was bound to how happen, right? And I don't, I don't like and not saying on him per se. But I don't like how, when certain events happen, we do that? Because I've been on that too. Like, yo, if I never met this person, if I never did this, like, Where would there be a me? Would there be? Yes, there would? Yes, yes, there would. It's just a timing situation. So like, I like, understand, but I don't like the imposter syndrome, because it just, it's we are worth something were valued to other people. And it's more of like, we have to see that it's a self issue. And I wouldn't know the first step, except for acceptance, to even battle that if you're I'm saying like, this is going to happen countless of times, especially for, you know, for entrepreneurs and creators, it's going to happen because you, you see other people in different levels, and you're like, Okay, I may be 10, but so and so's a 20. So this seems never ending. You know, I'm, how do I have this? And they have that they've been in it for 15 years, I've been in it for seven, like, everything happens for a reason we, we got to be okay with it. We got to be, like accepting of it. And once that happens, then everything that we're supposed to have unravels. But we get caught up in our feelings. And I get it, because I've done it too. I've absolutely done it too. So I mean,

Mostafa Ghonim  
yeah, yeah, that's crazy. Because I feel like it's the people who, who shouldn't worry about impostor syndrome, are the ones who feel it the most is like, because impostor syndrome, to some extent is you feeling like you're a fraud, or you're like, Man, I kind of feel that I don't deserve to be here to some extent, because maybe I don't have the highest level of credibility or experience or whatever it may be. But the fact that you're even thinking about it means that you have enough integrity to care about those things. So you probably shouldn't have to worry about it. But the ones who probably have to worry about it are the ones who are just like, oh, I don't care about that. And so they will suffer from it. So I think in short, man, if you're struggling with it, because it is a real thing, I think both Nicky and I have kind of dealt with it at different stages or to different degrees. If you're even considering it, that should let you know that it's you're not the problem, like you're not the issue that is creating the bigger problem at large, whatever it is that you're concerned about. If you're thinking about it, you're not the problem.

Nicky Saunders  
That's facts. And and, and it goes towards just doubting a lot of things in in us almost to say, like, Yo, I don't like it, just to downplay that. We don't even think that we can do it. Right. So a great example is, you know, how people feel about selling is a few people that's like, I don't like selling like, I don't like doing that. I'm just one of them. Yeah, And no, there's there's there's a certain part of selling that I don't like, right I guess so. Clouds done it. Sold clouds, right, but is it my favorite thing? No, it's not my favorite thing. But after listening to this clip, it makes sense that this is such a bar to it. You're gonna hear it. But just listen.

Unknown Speaker  
You always that's the problem, right? What you just said, you just played a clip that said thoughts become things. So the thing is, that's not your fact. You hate selling you're right, you hate it. So that becomes your truth. But I could change that I hate talking about myself. I hate feeling like selling yourself is different from from selling. Like I don't I don't like selling myself that's like the cheap lawyer like Id rather have somebody else talk about my characteristics than me going in the room and telling somebody I did this I'm this I'm this I'm this I'm this. It just sounds like you fully yourself as opposed to somebody else telling you story. Now sounds like you're a great person.

Nicky Saunders  
So this, that goes that that goes right with impostor syndrome. Because if you say, Yo, I don't think I don't like this, I don't do this. Then what he said was like, because we said it now it's fact. Like now we now we truly believe it. Even if it's not true, like 9 out of 10 times its not true. It's not that we don't like selling not that we don't think we're good. Or we should be in these physicians or anything Babu cuz we set it now it's fact, right now we of course we don't like selling now, we don't feel like we should be in the room. Right? Because now it's fact. But the the second part to it, of like selling versus selling yourself. The thing that I got out of it was if you don't like doing that, find somebody else. You know, like, granted, depending on which salesperson you talk to, is like everything we we say is selling right. But there are people who do struggle speaking about themselves for maybe even the same reason we've been talking about which is imposter syndrome, maybe they just, they can't see it, that's fine. There's other people who see it. There's other people who understand the goal, right? Either you find the person that thinks the world of you within your team, or the person that understands the goal that I have to say these certain points in a very persuasive way, in order to make the sale in order to get the deal. Either way, get another person that's perfectly fine. People do it all the time. Until if ever you feel comfortable doing it yourself. But this is why we have people who are have sales teams and who you know, have somebody who introduces them and they and things like that, because we we don't have to do it, we can give up our limitations. We can give up our weaknesses to other people in order to make us strong in order to make the business and the branch strong. That's fine. But the first part of that is what really hit me is like the once again, understanding the power of words. And me saying, yo, I just can't stand this way, even for people who've been hearing us the whole funnel conversation. Hate files, right? Don't like them. Now I'm saying it's so much to the point where even if it wasn't a fact is now with that. That's right. You know, and until I get more facts to get out of this imaginary fact that I created. You know, it's just, it's a circle. So it's like, understand some of the words that we're saying we're making it now facts into our life circling back to the imposter syndrome. And then if we don't like selling if we don't like even talking about ourselves, find somebody else. 

Mostafa Ghonim  
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And just know that it always be. It's better received actually when you have someone who can talk on your behalf because that I do believe that right there is there's a fine line between selling, as you mentioned, possibly being persuasive about an idea or something that you think somebody else should acquire or pay you for. Right? Whatever. It's an exchange. But there's the other part where it almost comes off comes off as being overly self centered. You're you're just, you're pumping up your accomplishments so much that people start to lose sight of. Okay. Is it you? Who's awesome? Or is it your product or service? That's incredible. And I'm kind of I'm almost starting to lose track of what's, what's the real value here. So I do think that when you have some someone or even a group of people who can advocate for you, I think about how sometimes things happen. How we've gotten some guests on the podcast, hey, clip this up, hey, mal, we want you on the podcast, and then the comments start going out. And it's like, we have people who can advocate on our behalf where mals like, dang, okay, I'm gonna go on the podcast, I think I need to be there, right? It's the same exact thing. It's choosing a different method to sell. Other than one where we feel we have to stand up and overly convince you that we're worthy of you being on the show or something like that. So I think it's the same thing, but just know that there's a fine line between you convincing someone a value that you have to offer deliver, versus you pumping yourself up that can possibly make people lose sight of, okay, what, what's in it, and usually, it's a turn off. I think a lot of people are typically turned off by it, because they're like, yeah, probably not that good. If you got to speak about it that much.

Nicky Saunders  
Now, that's a that's a fact. That's a fact. But just find you a hype man, or woman. I think that'd be everybody should have one. I'm just saying Kurt is mine. Shout out to Kurt. That man Will talk me up and I'm like, I don't even know that about me. Hello? Right. Crazy.

Mostafa Ghonim  
How did you know that?

Nicky Saunders  
Right, like, my mom knows this? You talking to my Mom? Shout out to mom, Hello? Um, yeah. Just it's such a it's such a, it's such an important conversation that between the two of them that I think we just we’ll go over and again, probably in other episodes, but it's just like, Why? Why Can't We? Why can we think the best for us? I mean, like, why are we our worst critics? Why have we? Why did we make that a common statement? Oh, I'm my worst critic. And everybody's like, Yeah, I'm my worst critic. Like, why is this a thing? We should not? We should be our biggest fans. Right? If it is, if there isn't anybody else in the world, we ourselves are our biggest fans. We should not always find something wrong with what we do. This is this is me. This is me. But switching into creator vibes, right. Fire FIRE interview that I saw from United masters select con with Issa Rae. And the conversation of can you be what's the balance between creator and CEO? What is the balance for her? She's made millions has shows, has coffee shops, all this? Like, she's amazing. But how do you do both and I was locked in. So let's talk

Unknown Speaker  
How do you balance being a creative and a CEO?

Issa Rae  
I hire well. That's how I balance it honestly. And I trust who I hire, I don't think that it's possible to be a a CEO, a great CEO and a great creative. I'm just gonna say that. I think that you need help. And you need to that that balance that you achieve is in the people that you trust. Because I realize like for me, I have to be able to focus on one to be great. And it's a for both our full time jobs. I have looked up and one year and realize, Oh my gosh, I've only done business. And I have not created anything new. And that makes me feel bad.

Mostafa Ghonim  
Yeah, I love I love both of the answers, right? It's almost like a two part answer. Hire well, and trust those who you hire. So we've covered the hire piece. We've talked about it. It's a nice reminder, though, that you're not the only one who's trying to do something great. So there are people out there Whew, if you've have the vision, they would love to be a part of it, and contribute to something great, because not everyone can build something great. But everyone wants to be a part of something great. And that is an absolute fact, right? People, as they mature as they get older, they put some experience under their belt, they start to recognize and they don't necessarily feel so bad, or they don't look at it as Oh, an insecurity or a weakness, because I'm not the builders, I won't maybe you're not the builder, but you're a phenomenal painter. And that's, that's a wonderful finishing touch to the building nonetheless. So you're a part of the building, but you didn't build the building. That's okay. Who cares? You didn't lay the first brick, you put the finishing touch. And I think that's a wonderful word. trusting the people you hire, though, that is something that I don't think enough people talk about. You know, because we even on the call that we had the other day, while I was talking my like, Man, when you ice your best players, for whatever reason, right? That that makes your people think that you don't trust them. So if if, if for whatever reason, something happens, and you've got great people on your team, but you're not using them, because you think that you might be bothering them or you don't want to overwork them, or whatever it is, whatever assumption you might have made in your mind, it can start to create some challenges, because now those talented people, their attention, and their energy can get pulled in a different direction. They can start to question their contributions, or should they even be in this position? So that part is important. It's just as important as getting them in the right place. It's like, give them the power. Be be clear about hey, I like where you're going. But I don't think you've got what it takes to get us to that next level just yet. So this person is going to take the lead. And the wonderful thing that I like about that type of approach is isn't there's no guessing game. It's like Oh, cool. Nick's got the lead on this one. All right, cool. Nicks, what are we doing? Oh, okay, I got the lead on this. Okay, Nick. So here's the plan is is cool is like, I don't think anyone especially and that's what I'm saying, especially as we mature throughout the experience of business and just building something phenomenal. People curb their egos, so that they can win. Ultimately, that's what it comes down to. So the other I like that second piece, I think that's that's a critical element to it all, you got to trust those who you put in those positions, because it's like having an MJ on your team, but they're on a bench. Makes no sense.

Nicky Saunders  
Thats a fact, and then think. And I think that that's the, that's the struggle with creators. Like, if you don't already have that really good sense of business, right? You're going to want to stay in the pocket of creating. And it is hard to trust with the CEO part like it is hard to trust with the business part. And so you kind of lack on the business part because you're staying such in the creative vibe. So everything's flowers and grand and oh my god, you create the greatest thing. But how is revenue coming in? How is how are we scaling? Are you scaling? You know? Or is it just you? Like, if it's just you, what is the model that you're doing that will allow you to bring money into your life, if not crazy, but then even at the end, she was like, Yo, I even get to a point where I'm doing so much business stuff. I didn't create anything all year. I would me personally would have a problem with that. There'd be no way I can't but I think once again, that's why I'm in my unique situation where I'm like, I'm understanding the balance of of business and creator but I'm still so much on the Creator side that I haven't super locked in on the business side just yet. Right? Um, hence why I'm going through my little journey and I understand this, but like, but it's it's a struggle. It's a struggle. So you're telling me I got to concentrate on the business side, which when I got into this, I already like I got into this because I'm a creator. And I understand I have to make a business of this. But my first part is As a creator, and so to switch it, it's probably a hot and cold vibe. It's like, okay, if I go into business, I'm going into business, like, but then I'm not creating but then I go into creators like, there has to be and I love how she said that. The the way to do that is to hire well. 

Mostafa Ghonim  
no, I was gonna say it's definitely a domino cycle like it's one feeds the other if you spend too much time in one bucket, you'll work yourself out of out of business, like like, you'll just run out, you know, like, and I think it's easy for for whichever comes easier for you, you're probably lean on that one a little bit more like I spent two years in the business like Oh, not and you'll, you'll come up with some very valid reasons why you can't do the other piece. He's like, no, no, no, it's just, it's just not my thing. I don't want to do it. I don't think it makes sense. Like, yeah, sure, it makes sense. But you need them you need both.

Nicky Saunders  
Now that's, that's a fact. But even in we have an example of it. So, hit boy, who is a major music producer, for our hip hop fans, the producer of Kings disease NAS album that won a Grammy think like twice or something, but don't quote me. No, definitely one. So they've done a king disease. One, two, he's done. Nipsey he's done. Grizelda he's done. Kanye. He's done. He's done it all right. But he said something that completely proves this whole creator struggle of the business side. So let's listen to it.

Hit Boy  
Keep it a million, like even on a business and I see that I put on like producers, they sign and producers they got a business right. And I'm still literally I mean, I know it was around way back and it was just kind of chaotic. I'm a lot more put together but I still ain't got my business in a place where I fully wanted to I'm just sign it I don't have a situation structure just to just sign producers and that's ridiculous because I literally put on that sign of producers and Got they thing together. So I don't know whether it's I'm so very deep and just into the music that I got to really focus on that business side. But that's just been a tough thing for me.

Mostafa Ghonim  
Yeah, legit a real life example of what happens when you're overly focused on one side that and this is um, that you've said before, plenty of times, man that people who are not as good as you end up beating you just because they've tried it. Just because they've did it. They're like, Oh, Got it, market responded, perfect timing chips were lined up. They capitalize and you're like, wait a second, but I'm better. Yeah, but you didnt fr. 

Nicky Saunders  
i started Before you like I put you on like I literally, you are here, because I introduced you to so and so . So I told them about you. What are we talking about? Yes, absolutely. Absolutely.

Mostafa Ghonim  
Yeah, so  that's a real life example of what happens when you're you're too much on one side of the spectrum and you're not focused on the other and this is not no shade to Creatives or business people because it's literally the same thing. Like even if you're the business person, you need you. You need a creative or you need to create something to sell or to build business around. So either end of the spectrum, you need both and your passion or love for one is not a valid enough reason or excuse to stop you from doing the other

Nicky Saunders  
hurt somebody's feelings, that almost hurt mine. 

Mostafa Ghonim  
Shes like dang that was kind of actually me.

Nicky Saunders  
Im not even gonna say lowkey, that hurt my feelings Okay, that's great. Um, no, no, um it's a struggle. I literally labeled that part creator struggle is a struggle, because and because you see the success of your creations. You see the success and I mean, dude is getting Grammys dude is making millions. He's working with the best artists out there and is on heavy demand. Everybody wants to do an album of some sort or a song or something with hit boy So, because you see the success of what you love so much, but you came into the game with came into the industry with holy crap, I got to think of an agency. That's for me. I got to think of an agency, you're bugging. Do you see what I do? What are we talking about? But then you see other situations, you're like, what house? How did you go to that person? How did you? How did you go over that? Are you serious? And then it just makes you self reflect like, Yo, you don't got your stuff in order. You don't have your stuff in order. And you have to make the decision of Are you okay? Right here. Right? Having the success you are, but it possibly not being able to scale? Because it's you doing it? So, yes, making money, success having the relationships, it's great. So amazing. And then what? Because you didn't think of further than that part. Something's going to happen eventually. Either you're going to look at it and be like, Yo, they're passing me up, or how did they get this? How did like, I don't even have like you said, I don't even have the structure for that to happen. I don't like people want to sign to me. And I don't even have the structure for that. What would that even look like? From a legal side? From a personnel side? What how do I even cater to the? What does that look, I don't even know what that looks like. And I don't even have the time because I am making hits that are working. I'm doing things that are working that are making me money, and I have relationships that are out of this world that people would die for. How do we fix that? Like? I feel so I feel like I'm talking to me, this is horrible.

Mostafa Ghonim  
You got passionate about this when I see because it's true.

Nicky Saunders  
It's like you get into the game wanting to do this. And then yeah, you understand there's, there's other things you have to do to secure the bag. There's other things you have to do to make sure the name lasts longer, and you're not, um, you're not working for the rest of your life and things like that. But I don't think we instantly think like that when we get into this. No, and it's hard. That switch.

Mostafa Ghonim  
Yeah, sometimes the the worst thing that can happen to you is in failure, sometimes the success, like sometimes it's you

Yeah, man, that's crazy. That's great. I'm telling you like these. I love the podcast because I swear like it always extracts the lessons that are experienced in this season, the season prior to is literally that I you can think that man, imagine I start and I don't make it like imagine I don't get the relationships or it doesn't work out or people are not willing to make the investment or I don't have any customers or clients or people don't believe in my voice or whatever the case may be. But imagine they do. Imagine it works out. Imagine they buy in so much. So, so much quicker than you anticipated. So much bigger than you were prepared for that, that your credibility is almost on the line now. Because you weren't prepared for that level of growth. You were just like, Oh yeah, I'm gonna give this a try. Like I'm gonna see if I can get to sales. You got 200 You're like, whoa, hold up a second. Like the infrastructure a built for 200 We was we would have been cool on 10 we really expect them 2 but 10 would have been okay. So in some cases, going back to your imagination sometimes you got to imagine a little bit differently. It's not always failure. That's the worst thing that can happen to you sometimes a success because there are different types of problems like real different problems come with success Yeah,

Nicky Saunders  
white flag I don't

Mostafa Ghonim  
Pitstop. PitStop water

Nicky Saunders  
right. Hey, i dont even wanna, we can end the podcast. We can if we can, but we got one more. I don't really want to do this one more, but we're gonna go one more. Oh, Oh,

Mostafa Ghonim  
there's only one more we got you.

Nicky Saunders  
Yeah, yeah, no, no, no, no. So moose came up with this. Nick came up with this. He came across and I came up like he made the interview. But um, he came across an interview with Joe. We're gonna call him Joe B, but I'm probably going to butcher just last night. Borrow the QB of the Cincinnati Bengals. Right. And for those people who don't even know sports, the quarterback of an NFL team, I don't want to realize we have different audiences, right? But um, we have always been known to celebrate our wins. Right? Celebrate our wins, no matter how big or small, celebrate our wins. But could we celebrate our losses? So he got a lot of slack? For after the Super Bowl? Yes, he went to the Super Bowl for celebrating for going out after that, and he did a explain. So let's listen to that.

Joe B  
For one, I said something in it. When he lost the Super Bowl, he regretted not celebrating what they had accomplished. Instead, and he did what you talked about when sulk in a corner. And then after the game, I was like yes, sucks. We just lost Super Bowl. But we did some really cool. Yeah. And I wanted to celebrate with the guys about what we did for the year. And all the success that we had rather than sit in a corner and sulk about the game we just lost

Nicky Saunders  
this is really good. Okay, first off, I aint mad at it. Like you should celebrate you went to the Super Bowl. That is every other team didn't. It's only two teams that went to the Super Bowl. You might as well celebrate it. And then you look at that. It's like when we bring it back to like real life because not all of us are, you know, NFL players go to Super Bowls, right? But we bring it back to real life. Like you'll there are a lot of things that our family hasn't done. There's a lot of things that our friends haven't done. There's a lot of things within our age range that other people haven't done until they're older and we're not looking at that because we constantly have this grind mode or it's not you know, we didn't really succeed we didn't get this goal we didn't like yo chill out like hold on you're you're doing amazing and you might as well celebrate that okay, you went to this let's say this tournament whatever it is in your industry what's his tournament? You're like top five well I'm not number one. Your top five What are you talking about? What are you doing right? It is we have to get more we have to make it more common to just celebrate not celebrate wins or losses or any just celebrate just accomplishments like looking at the positive of everything. Every single thing and that's hard because we live in a such a negative society. So it doesn't that somebody will look at the Super Bowl and the team that lost like oh my God, why would you go wow, you were you in the Super Bowl? Did you go did you not have you probably didn't even pay for a ticket. You couldn't afford it? What are you talking about? I'm going to celebrate? I look I'm going to go out and bring my team we're going to celebrate because this was an amazing year period. Nobody else came to the Superbowl. Had the record we have beat the teams we did nobody else. Please sit down as we continue to celebrate. We need to do that just in regular life. Like what you know if you know who I owe shout out to he don't listen to the podcast, but I'll say right, um, shout out to Philip Webb. Right. He um, ATM like he's the man in the ATM business. Right. And he wrote a book and the crazy thing is like he's he downplayed it. Right. And I think that's what happens in certain circles is like you do something that everybody else supposedly did. Right? You're Unlike the last person to get to write a book, in what circle sir? Vlm e in the world, you're actually not the last. Okay? You're actually a small percentage who actually did write a book? That is an amazing accomplishment that everybody has author underneath them. What are you talking about? You need to celebrate that you wrote the book, you need to celebrate that you wrote it in the amount of time that you did. There are somebody who said they're gonna write a book, and they haven't yet. So celebrate that you wrote a book celebrate that it's on Amazon celebrate all that, what are you talking about? And he's like, I never thought about that. No, the small circle of 40 people that you are in, that you follow that wrote a book, and you may be the last of that 40 understand there's billions of people in the world who never even thought about writing a book. And they should, their stories need to be out there their craft, their their expertise needs to be written out for people to read. You took the time to do that. Your special celebrate that? He's like, Oh, you're right. Same thing with with how people sell right. Oh, man, I only get two to three customers a month. How much is your? How much is your course? 1000? How much were you selling before the course? Ok What are we? What are we doing? Why are we why are we saying that's not an accomplishment that may not be up to your expectations are what you deem to be successful, it still is still something you would have never gotten that money period. If you never created the course if you never put it out there for sale, you would have never that needs to be so each client customer, a person that you impact. Small milestones, big mouth, everything needs to be celebrated. Regardless if you are at your end goal or not. Yes, there's still light at the end of the tunnel. Cool, right? But can we celebrate the little lamp post that we are passing as we get to the end of this tunnel? I'm just saying. Yeah,

Mostafa Ghonim  
yeah. Yeah. And that's why I like what I found interesting about the clip. And it's crazy because like the way we started the podcast today talking about conforming by my initial reaction was like, Yo, that's crazy. Is this idea of not celebrating unless you were technically perfect, right? Because to win the Superbowl means that you were perfect. Like, you want it all. You finished everything. You beat everybody else. You were perfect. You had a perfect season, you want a Super Bowl. So is that mentality of only celebrating if you won the Super Bowl, an outdated mentality? Did we conform to it to an idea that isn't necessarily wise, or doesn't logically process all of what we did to get to where we are, especially when it's something that you can try again, next season? Next month, next week, tomorrow? Oh, I didn't get my sale a day today. But I didn't get the sale that I was aiming for today. Well, there is a tomorrow we can celebrate the fact that you at least pitched yourself and maybe before last week, you weren't comfortable pitching yourself. You don't like it. There's a lot of things that I think as you mentioned, the fact that we're the first in our families to do so many things. When you look at how far you've come. Honestly, sometimes celebrating is like putting gas in your own vehicle. It gives you just enough energy and momentum to say yeah, I'm gonna come back and do it again. I'm gonna try it again. i Okay, it wasn't great. But heck, I did it. I was afraid to post content before I gave up on posting content before like I'm posting again, that's good. celebrate that, like be prideful about it. I'm not posting 17 times a day. That's okay. But you posting once a week. That's a great thing is better than giving up on it. So that's the part about it that really kind of caught my attention was just because it's how it's always been done doesn't mean that that's the only way to do it. Just because people only celebrated when they won the Superbowl doesn't mean that you could only celebrate if you won the Superbowl. You got your own Super Bowl you there's different types of Super Bowls in your life that you can celebrate so you can get to the big gate in your version. And that's why I'm telling everyone look it up point in my life where I'm, I'm becoming more comfortable being just brutally honest about my experience. And I'm telling you that right now, I don't know that fame is the thing that I'm after I'm after more effectiveness, I'm after more certainty and clarity around what I want and how I want to live my life. I'm after different types of things. If it brings a gazillion listeners, cool, we'll deal with that when we get there. If it brings 100 listeners, 1000 listeners, no problem. That is totally fine. I'm not going to measure success. By having hundreds and 1000s of downloads and listeners and people tuned into our podcast. That's just not how I'm doing it. Right? Like it there, you can have your own definition of success, and achieve it and be successful, just as the guy who got a million views a day. That's totally possible for you. So that's the thing that I want. And I hope that every listener will take away from this part of it is like, Yo, I can have my own definition. And regardless of the numbers, it can be just as impactful as the next guy or the next cow. Because it's yours.

Nicky Saunders  
Fax um, yeah, that was good. That was good. So all I got to say about that. That was good. Once again, this is powered by Ecamm. And if you want to try e cam for yourself, whether you're starting your podcast, whether you are recording your course or want to record content, or you like live streaming, go to www W whatever. How many W's that Nikki emos.com/e km EC a mm. And try it out for 14 days for free on us. I mean, um, and follow us everywhere. At Nicaea moves everywhere. Okay, shout out to our YouTubers, or Instagramers or Facebook or Twitter. Twitter's Twitter has been rockin me. I don't know if you notice it. Twitter has been brought

Mostafa Ghonim  
back in. Back in so it has been robbed. We've been getting Twitter notifications lately. So I gotta I gotta jump back in.

Nicky Saunders  
Yeah, sad out to people on on Twitter. Follow us everywhere. Moose. Final words.

Mostafa Ghonim  
Yeah, I think given the conversation today, man I just wanted to do or I just want everyone who's listening to make sure that you're clear about the difference between imposter syndrome and not having enough experience. It's imposter syndrome. The definition literally says that. You feel like you're a fraud by you question whether or not you're deserving of your accolades. But maybe, maybe that's not the case. Maybe you just haven't acquired enough experience to know how to do something efficiently. So just as you go on your journey know the difference between impostor syndrome and having enough experience.